Computer slower on location! Please help!

[MudSpencer]

Hey everybody! My first post here.... i hope to get some feedback!

At first i'll give you the info of my remote recording stuff:

Intel core2duo 1.8ghz
Gigabyte 965P-DS3
2gb ddr2 800mhz ram
500gb disk 7500rpm

Digirack 002 (Pro Tools 8.02)
Audient asp008 (adat connected)

And now the experience:

Yesterday i was going to record drums for a band at their location. So i set up everything right and tryed to record 8 tracks simultaneously. It recorded 1s and then it stopped because of the lack of buffer. It sayed i should increase the buffer size... but you know, if i increase the buffer size the drummer will hear himself with some latency. So i packed up everything and went home... i tried the same thing at home and it worked normal on the slowest buffer. No interruptions! Today i went back to try it again and the same problem occurred. We tryed to connect the computer to other sockets in the house and it didn't work either.

So... what is ther problem? Is it that the computer doesn't get enough power? ..if so, what can i do to make it work?!

Thank you for your time for reading this. I hope i will get some answers!

(...I didn't find any similar problem using the SEARCH option...so i aplogise if a topic about this already exists!)

[boojum]

What were you recording and how many tracks at home???

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by MudSpencer

So... what is ther problem? Is it that the computer doesn't get enough power? ..if so, what can i do to make it work?!

sounds like you need clean power... and shielded power cables.

could be Sine wave distortion, THD.
could be EMI, RFI, CMRR,
could be ground contamination,
could be inestable voltage...
could be DC in the AC....
could be component to component contamination,
could be all...

the sollution?
a power conditioner, or better a power regeneration.
advanced filters for common mode noise and asymetric noise filters,
or more advanced...
Balanced power,
or Transformer isolation,
with bi directional ground filtering for component to component protection/isolation

brands like:
Furman P-1800 AR + P1800 PF R
Equitech Q,
Ps Audio Power Plant Premier
Eaton Power-Sure
Leveler Sentry RP24004A or iPure.
Accuphase PS-1210
PS Audio Humbuster 3,
etc...

Balanced power is heavy, but has its rewards.
Transformer Isolation also heavy, but not as much.
some regenerators are heavy, others arround 45Lbs.
non transformer filtering are portable...
Transformer size affects total Watts and Amps rating.
Transformers, Condensers and Regenerators eat power to work, usually from 3w to 300w (minium efficiency of >80%).

regenerators minimize sine wave THD to less than 0.4%, and reduce noise to acceptable levels, also regulates voltage to 120v.
Transformers if well designed reduce different noises at stronger levels, but some add 1% of THD to the sinewave, usually less than 5% total.
also there are computer controlled transformer voltage regulation like Furman P AR or Monster avs2000 pro.

Power conditioners, brands like:
Furman PF R, have asymetric noise attenuation from 2Khz at -40dB,
standard furman Lift does not go to 2Khz, has -10dB at 10Khz,
most brands usually filter noise from 100khz up to 1Ghz,

some brands promise incredible specs, like Leveler Sentry/ipure -100dB from 100Hz up to 2GHz, or Eaton Power-Sure T800 with the incredible (almost impossible) -140dB in common mode and asymetric noise,

same technonogy but diferent brands have different noise levels,
Furman P-2400 IT balanced power has -80dB,
Equitech Q balanced power has -100dB.
BPT unknown.
Power regenerators have around -75dB of noise.

Power regenerators are limited to 1500w RMS Continuos Output power.
Isolation transformers and Balanced power transformers are only limited by size, usually from 250w upto 10KW.
Power conditioners are around 10A 15A 20A depending on the brand.
or the smaller Leveler Bantams from 1A.

Some Links:
Accuphase Laboratory, Inc.　PS-1210
http://www.accuphase.com/cat/ps-1210_e.pdf

[DannyL]

Did you try disabling ALL internet connections? especially WIFI.

Danny

[MudSpencer]

@boojum: I was recording the same number of tracks as on location!

@Dubai: Thank you very much for your time to answer my question. One question though... Will any of the units you mentioned work out the problem i have?

@DannyL: I disabled all connections on location. And i also disabled all connections at home... so spyware,malware,etc isn't the issue i guess!

[mosrite]

Dont know if this is too obvious but is the laptop set to "always on" in the power option within control panel? If not, then when run off batteries, the CPU might step down to conserve power.

[AlexK]

Originally Posted by Dubai

sounds like you need cleaner power... and shielded power cables.

could be Sine wave distortion, THD.
could be EMI, RFI, CMRR,
could be ground contamination,
could be inestable voltage...
could be DC in the AC....
could be component to component contamination,
could be all...

etc...

I would've thought the amount of electrical noise generated inside a computer, especially from the hard drive, would VASTLY outweigh the amount of noise coming in through the power supply. I also struggle to see how this could affect data buffering.

Was the computer at the same angle? Some hard drives seem to work better when they're placed flat...

[MudSpencer]

I'm using a normal desktop computer... so no batteries and such!

What would be the cheapest way to sort this out? I guess i'll eatherway need a power conditioner like that if i'm going to record on locations more often...

[jd_]

Maybe you had too much vibration while recording drums? Not sure about desktops, but many laptops have motion sensors that can be easily triggered by drums.
Computer thinks its falling and stows the HDD heads away - writing peformance greatly degraded.

[audibell]

Hi, I understand your frustration but you will find the problem.
The desktop you described has only one 7200RPM drive or two? If only one, then your system drive will have to work harder during recording and might drop multi-track data. Even with today's cache sizes, you still want a separate sample drive (E:\) AND a system (C:\)drive. Your DVD/CD-ROM drive is probably D:\. I have found a WD Caviar Green 500Gig SATA with 32megs of cache reliable.

Can you not give the drummer a headphone mix from the 002 before it goes into the DAW, therefore without latency/delay? If you find a way to tap the signal on its way IN, then you can adjust your buffer to suit the computer without disturbing the drummer. You need RAM and Hard Drive cache for recording, buffer size is more of an editing requirement. Unless you're doing both together.

Are you sure your adat settings are all matched in the daw?

Have you considered a home office UPS (Un-interruptible Power Supply) just for the computer? Its voltage regulation should smooth out your supply ac at both locations. I use APC 500VA.

You can buy a little yellow plug for less than $5, with red, yellow & green LEDs, which show you if an ac outlet is wired correctly with regard to hot, neutral and ground. A $10 multimeter from RatShack will show the actual ac voltage in the wires.
Hope this helps, don't give up!
regds
WalterT

[MudSpencer]

@audibel: Thank you for your answer... Im going to borrow a UPS unit from a friend today, so we gonna try it this way. If the UPS doesn't work i guess ill have to do the monitor mix a different way... will have to figure that out!

It's not the vibration from drums(or from elsewhere) that is causing drop outs, bacause it stops even when i do a simple playback!

I'll keep u posted!

And tnx to u all!

[777Artin]

Hey MudSpencer,

it's not about electrical power. Your problem comes from 1's and 0's.

Recording "nothing" from your inputs to test your rig OR recording signal isn't the same thing.

Test your rig by sending whatever signal in your (8) inputs and you will see that you computer will work a lot more.........just like when you're doing drums.

A lot more computer calculations are needed to record signal then "nothing".

Nothing to do with AC power.

777artin

[MudSpencer]

Originally Posted by 777Artin

Hey MudSpencer,

it's not about electrical power. Your problem comes from 1's and 0's.

Recording "nothing" from your inputs to test your rig OR recording signal isn't the same thing.

Test your rig by sending whatever signal in your (8) inputs and you will see that you computer will work a lot more.........just like when you're doing drums.

A lot more computer calculations are needed to record signal then "nothing".

Nothing to do with AC power.

777artin

Hey 777artin,

as i stated above, even if i play back nothing at all or 1 simple track... just press space, it plays 1 second and then it drops out. I also tried to hook up the microphones at home and screamed, so thet the tracks were responding ... and it worked with no problems. The first thing ill try to do is - borrow a UPS and start with this. I'm going to a computer store today and i'll try to borrow one.

[boojum]

I would check what is coming out of that wall socket. Are you getting the 110 or 220 the box expects??

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by MudSpencer

The first thing ill try to do is - borrow a UPS and start with this. I'm going to a computer store today and i'll try to borrow one.

I'd very much doubt that the power supply would be to blame.. If, then something would be severely wrong in the location were you tried to record.
Forget Dubai's post above, it will certainly not help.

Just to test the PC a bit, try this: http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

Originally Posted by 777Artin

A lot more computer calculations are needed to record signal then "nothing".

No, that's not true.

[777Artin]

[/QUOTE]777Artin
A lot more computer calculations are needed to record signal then "nothing".

d_fu

No, that's not true.





Oh yes it is my friend.

Have you ever recorded 48 tracks of "nothing" and of signal. Guess not or you would'nt say that.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by 777Artin

Oh yes it is my friend.
Have you ever recorded 48 tracks of "nothing" and of signal. Guess not or you would'nt say that.

Whether or not DAW software records a lot of zeroes or a lot of ones makes no difference whatsoever. Not in terms of storage space required and not in terms of CPU power. At least not on any of my computers. Don't what you are using, though...

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by MudSpencer

@boojum: I was recording the same number of tracks as on location!

@Dubai: Thank you very much for your time to answer my question. One question though... Will any of the units you mentioned work out the problem i have?

It depends, if your PC power supply or converters PSU its sensitive to AC line noise or not.
most Laptops powersupply are not sensitive, most Tower PCs are, most soundcards/converters are.

a cheaper alternative would be to buy another brand of Power supply (but that could only solve the PC, not the converters, mic-pres, etc...).
something like Cooler Master Silent Pro M700.
any PSU with low electric ripple & noise.

i have an old Compaq 4700, when connected to clean power vs. wall,
tested measuring with passmark performance test 6.1
the same PC improoves 10% in everything CPU GPU, HDD, Memory exept CD read speed, soundcard RME hdsp9632 noise floor goes.down, etc...

Originally Posted by AlexK

I would've thought the amount of electrical noise generated inside a computer, especially from the hard drive, would VASTLY outweigh the amount of noise coming in through the power supply. I also struggle to see how this could affect data buffering.

did you see the Leveler vs. Monster video..?

i have a monster/entech noise analyzer sniffer v2, just like the Leveler Video.
computers, amplifiers, synths, almost everything generates noise.
but the noise contamination that comes from the AM / FM Radio Stations, cell phones, freezers, some light bulbs, and all the surrounding apartments connected to the same main Transformer, contaminates more.

read leveler white paper, lab tests on personal computers...
http://www.levelerllc.com/documents/...%20Leveler.pdf

Originally Posted by audibell

Hi, I understand your frustration but you will find the problem.
The desktop you described has only one 7200RPM drive or two? If only one, then your system drive will have to work harder during recording and might drop multi-track data. Even with today's cache sizes, you still want a separate sample drive (E:\) AND a system (C:\)drive. Your DVD/CD-ROM drive is probably D:\. I have found a WD Caviar Green 500Gig SATA with 32megs of cache reliable.

Can you not give the drummer a headphone mix from the 002 before it goes into the DAW, therefore without latency/delay? If you find a way to tap the signal on its way IN, then you can adjust your buffer to suit the computer without disturbing the drummer. You need RAM and Hard Drive cache for recording, buffer size is more of an editing requirement. Unless you're doing both together.

Have you considered a home office UPS (Un-interruptible Power Supply) just for the computer? Its voltage regulation should smooth out your supply ac at both locations. I use APC 500VA.

You can buy a little yellow plug for less than $5, with red, yellow & green LEDs, which show you if an ac outlet is wired correctly with regard to hot, neutral and ground. A $10 multimeter from RatShack will show the actual ac voltage in the wires.
Hope this helps, don't give up!
regds
WalterT

purchasing a dedicated HDD for recording its a must.
but there are better/faster HDDs, like SSD technology or Acard ramdisks.

purchasing a Led meter to see the conection also a must.
but.. most cheap UPS generate Square waves, not Sine Waves.
only the most advanced generate Sinewaves with 5% distortion.
most are designed to be just a fail safe mechanism, not a go to sollution.

APC Surta has true sinewave with 5% distortion.
but problem could be ground contamination, only Bi directional ground filtering or transformer isolation/balanced power helps there,
without installing a new longer ground copper bar in the ground, and rewire the whole house.

Originally Posted by 777Artin

Hey MudSpencer,
it's not about electrical power. Your problem comes from 1's and 0's.
Recording "nothing" from your inputs to test your rig OR recording signal isn't the same thing.

Test your rig by sending whatever signal in your (8) inputs and you will see that you computer will work a lot more.........just like when you're doing drums.

A lot more computer calculations are needed to record signal then "nothing".
Nothing to do with AC power.
777artin

AC power is where those 1s and 0s come from.
AC power its like Air to you.

the real test its to record 24/32/48 tracks with exactly the same signal, for as long as needed.
and when doing playback change the phase 180° of half (50%) of all tracks recorded. 24 if 48, 64 if 128, etc...
and if the recording is OK, there should be no sound at all, perfect null.
but... some softwares cheat, like Sonar if you set 100 tracks to the same input, and record 100 tracks, Sonar cheats and only records 1 track.

Cubase / Nuendo does not cheat when recording multiple tracks with same input,
but havent tested with other softwares, Reaper, Samplitude, Mackie Tracktion, Logic, etc...

Originally Posted by d_fu

I'd very much doubt that the power supply would be to blame.. If, then something would be severely wrong in the location were you tried to record.
Forget Dubai's post above, it will certainly not help.

if all data servers & goverments in the world follow your advice, the civilization would end.
...
10% improovement with sensitive PSU, exept CD read becouse i used a diferent CD. :( Data CD vs. Audio CD.
Measured with passmark performace test 6.1
Compaq 4700 tower pc.
Clean Power vs. Wall.

[777Artin]

d_fu

Whether or not DAW software records a lot of zeroes or a lot of ones makes no difference whatsoever. Not in terms of storage space required and not in terms of CPU power. At least not on any of my computers. Don't what you are using, though...

So you did not get my post.....did you?

0's and 1's do get the same data sizes but the cpu won't process the same thing. This is why MudSpencer is having trouble at the rehearsal sapce and not at home.

On my 48 tracks mobile rig, if i put all inputs in record mode and press "record" then the computer runs at around 12 / 15% cpu. If i put signal in there.........the computer runs now at around 28 / 33% cpu. The only thing that has change in between the 2 tests.............audio signal at the inputs.

Their you go my friend, have a great day.

[lettenmusic]

Originally Posted by MudSpencer

Hey everybody! My first post here.... i hope to get some feedback!

At first i'll give you the info of my remote recording stuff:

Intel core2duo 1.8ghz
Gigabyte 965P-DS3
2gb ddr2 800mhz ram
500gb disk 7500rpm

Digirack 002 (Pro Tools 8.02)
Audient asp008 (adat connected)

And now the experience:

Yesterday i was going to record drums for a band at their location. So i set up everything right and tryed to record 8 tracks simultaneously. It recorded 1s and then it stopped because of the lack of buffer. It sayed i should increase the buffer size... but you know, if i increase the buffer size the drummer will hear himself with some latency. So i packed up everything and went home... i tried the same thing at home and it worked normal on the slowest buffer. No interruptions! Today i went back to try it again and the same problem occurred. We tryed to connect the computer to other sockets in the house and it didn't work either.

So... what is ther problem? Is it that the computer doesn't get enough power? ..if so, what can i do to make it work?!

Thank you for your time for reading this. I hope i will get some answers!

(...I didn't find any similar problem using the SEARCH option...so i aplogise if a topic about this already exists!)

You are using all the exact same equipment at home as you are at the rehearsal space? (mouse, keyboard, usb/1394 cables, monitor, power cords, etc.)

[lettenmusic]

Originally Posted by 777Artin

d_fu

So you did not get my post.....did you?

0's and 1's do get the same data sizes but the cpu won't process the same thing. This is why MudSpencer is having trouble at the rehearsal sapce and not at home.

On my 48 tracks mobile rig, if i put all inputs in record mode and press "record" then the computer runs at around 12 / 15% cpu. If i put signal in there.........the computer runs now at around 28 / 33% cpu. The only thing that has change in between the 2 tests.............audio signal at the inputs.

Their you go my friend, have a great day.

this could possibly be because of the DAW creating waveform images on the fly as you are recording. This is my thought. Unless of course you have your DAW set to create images after recording and still experience the CPU usage difference.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by 777Artin

0's and 1's do get the same data sizes but the cpu won't process the same thing. This is why MudSpencer is having trouble at the rehearsal sapce and not at home.

Uhh... No. No, it's not.
MudSpencer, please don't let these comments confuse you...

On my 48 tracks mobile rig, if i put all inputs in record mode and press "record" then the computer runs at around 12 / 15% cpu. If i put signal in there.........the computer runs now at around 28 / 33% cpu. The only thing that has change in between the 2 tests.............audio signal at the inputs.

Just when you think you've seen it all on GS, stuff like this comes up. Weird. Strange computer you've got there.

[huub]

I hang out at the remote forum because generally speaking no idiotic discussions take place here, I think it's best to just ignore stuff like some of the previous posts.... Makes for a cleaner forum...

[MudSpencer]

Ok...so i finished today the recording. I didn't get an UPC unit so i solved it like that:

We recorded the drums without monitoring... only click track from the computer.
When we recorded bass i went to a DI, the parallel out went to my PODxt and the POD line out went to a headphone mixer. Also the click track and the drums went to the same headphone mixer... so i bypassed the computer for monitoring (oldsql style)...i did the same thing for guitar (will reamp it later) and will do the same thing for vocals tomorrow!

I'm recording next week at a different location... will see what happens!

I think i would need a expensive power supply for clean power to solve this!...no such money in my pocket at the moment!

Tnx guys for your help!

[chris319]

AC power is where those 1s and 0s come from.

Welcome to Gearslutz, where computing is reinvented every day.

If the culprit were AC line noise you would have bigger problems than the one you describe. If the noise content were really egregious the computer wouldn't boot, the program wouldn't run and you wouldn't have gotten as far as you did.

Did you go into Windows' device manager and disable ALL wireless devices? BTW malware doesn't need an Internet connection to do its thing.

As others have stated this is not an AC line noise problem. To get the cleanest AC you would need a battery and inverter combination, and the inverter would have to put out a pure sine wave. You can spend money trying to clean up the AC but when it doesn't solve the problem remember that several people here told you it wouldn't.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by 777Artin

On my 48 tracks mobile rig, if i put all inputs in record mode and press "record" then the computer runs at around 12 / 15% cpu. If i put signal in there.........the computer runs now at around 28 / 33% cpu. The only thing that has change in between the 2 tests.............audio signal at the inputs.

Got any native plug-ins in your recording session file?

Originally Posted by MudSpencer

Ok...so i finished today the recording. I didn't get an UPC unit so i solved it like that:

We recorded the drums without monitoring... only click track from the computer.
(snip)
I think i would need a expensive power supply for clean power to solve this!...no such money in my pocket at the moment!

Tnx guys for your help!

That's what hardware monitoring has been invented for. Most interfaces have this in some way. You can route the DAW output and the input monitor to the same interface output.
I can't imagine a way in which AC quality could affect buffer size. This isn't even a CPU thing.

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by chris319

If the culprit were AC line noise you would have bigger problems than the one you describe. If the noise content were really egregious the computer wouldn't boot, the program wouldn't run and you wouldn't have gotten as far as you did.

Did you go into Windows' device manager and disable ALL wireless devices? BTW malware doesn't need an Internet connection to do its thing.

As others have stated this is not an AC line noise problem. To get the cleanest AC you would need a battery and inverter combination, and the inverter would have to put out a pure sine wave. You can spend money trying to clean up the AC but when it doesn't solve the problem remember that several people here told you it wouldn't.

#1. Yes, there are Virus/Malware software that are designed to use the CPU 80% doing nothing 24/7,
...
easy to remove with:
Free antivirus - Avira AntiVir
+
Malwarebytes.org

AV-Comparatives - Independent Tests of Anti-Virus Software - Welcome to AV-Comparatives.org

#2. Inverters generate Modified Sinewaves,
the best "Pure Sine" inverters have 3% THD "not pure", barely = to the wall.
far from regenerators 0.3% THD.
inverters noise floor its unknown,
regenerators its -75dB aprox.

DCACPOWERINVERTERS.COM - 12V DC to AC 3000 W Pure Sine Inverter

Inverter (electrical) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Honda Power Equipment - Honda Generators - Selecting the right portable generator for you

#3. Smaller Leveler Bantams & UPS have triple bi-directional filtration (Line, Neutral & Ground Bi directional filtration) for less than $400usd.
UPS around $600usd.

the Bantam Maxx has 3A triple filtered, + 12A only ground filtered.
120v * 3A = 360Watts.
120v * 12A = 1440watts.

the discontinued Bantam 600 was perfect, 600w 5A triple filtered.
1/4 of the $2000usd. Sentry RP24004A.

the others are too smaller... 1A 120w for $100usd.
etc...

#4. clean power works.

#5. to solve the Monitoring problem...
there are different possible solutions...

A) to buy an analog console, or Samson C.que
use the console micpres, or other mic pre, connect the console between the micpre and the AD converter.

B) buy a better soundcard with DSP, and use the DSP for 0-latency monitoring.
Sonic Core, RME hdsp, Lynx AES16, Protools HD, etc...

C) to buy Power Cleaners,

with power cleaners performance increases on most equipment,
also has an additional advantage... PROTECTION.
equipment will last longer.

without Power Cleaners, noise floor of the console and mic-pres will be higher, most PCs are susceptible to failure (Software Errors, Hardware Errors), and digital clock in the AD/DA converters has more jitter, making recordings with lower quality.

without Balanced Power fixing Ground Loops Hums require to install a new longer Ground copper bar in the ground and rewire the whole house.

with the Console, or monitoring station, you need more cables, the only advantage its hands on knobs.
consoles are limited by price... lower price less features.

with the better soundcard, probably will need new software...(asuming he is usign digi002 with protools Le)

any decent DSP soundcard its more than $500usd. usually $1000usd.
+ software $500usd.
= $1500usd.

the cheap sollution is to use a click track to record drums...
but some softwares are not accurate... for example Nuendo v2, click track its useless.

if you want to PROTECT your investment, its wiser to choose the best power conditioner possible.

Every Location its a risk for the equipment.

Furman Series Multi-Stage Protection Plus

FurmanSound.com - AC Power Management for Audio / Video Professionals

i had furman, but decided to buy regenerators.

[777Artin]

With all these commentaries above........this is just another reason why i don't hangout here.

The other obvious reason is : mobile and studio work for the past 16 years.

Obviously and as said above : i don't know.

777artin