KM184 vs KM140 shootout coming...

[jnorman]

well, i bought a pair of neumann KM140s, so for a while, i will have access to pairs of both KM140s and KM184s, and will do a shootout inthe studio to compare them directly. many people have requested this shootout, as there has long been confusion about whether they sound the same or not. i also have a pair of DPA 4061s and a pair of AT4051s i could throw into the mix, if you think that would be interesting.

while neumann insists that they sound the same, many users indicate that they hear slight differences, and often prefer the km140 over the km184. others, however, dont hear any significant difference, and some folks insist that the km184 sounds better...

anyway, i am going to give it a go, and post some clips soon. i have an acoustic guitar, baby grand piano, and flute available for the testing. is there anything specific you might like for me to do during the testing? i would like to try some piano/flute duo stuff and solo acoustic guitar, and maybe flute solo. suggestions? anything to avoid? any specific recording methodology to help ensure appropriate sample comparisons? thanks.

[trompetfreak]

Some pics of the placement would be nice.
Comparing with the 4061 wouldn't be very interesting for me. If you can get your hands on a pair of 4011's it would be great!

[Dave Ferris]

I wouldn't mind hearing close micing on piano, more in a Jazz style. I'd be curious about the 4061s as well as the AT 4050s.

I'm pretty happy with my DPA 4011s but always listening and learning..........

Thanks for your efforts.

[David Spearritt]

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by jnorman

well, i bought a pair of neumann KM140s, so for a while, i will have access to pairs of both KM140s and KM184s, and will do a shootout inthe studio to compare them directly. many people have requested this shootout, as there has long been confusion about whether they sound the same or not. i also have a pair of DPA 4061s and a pair of AT4051s i could throw into the mix, if you think that would be interesting.

while neumann insists that they sound the same, many users indicate that they hear slight differences, and often prefer the km140 over the km184. others, however, dont hear any significant difference, and some folks insist that the km184 sounds better...

anyway, i am going to give it a go, and post some clips soon. i have an acoustic guitar, baby grand piano, and flute available for the testing. is there anything specific you might like for me to do during the testing? i would like to try some piano/flute duo stuff and solo acoustic guitar, and maybe flute solo. suggestions? anything to avoid? any specific recording methodology to help ensure appropriate sample comparisons? thanks.

This sounds great! Really looking forward to hearing the results!

[jnorman]

hi guys - i just got the km140s in the mail today, and they came with a pair of KA 100 active cables - the ones with regualr body connectors on one end and the small lemo connectors on the other end (meant for legacy neumman caps, i suppose). does anybody now if there is some kind of adapter to change the lemo connectors to standard connectors allowing the use of AK capsules? or a place where you can purchase the AK capsule connectors so i can cut off the lemos and put on standard AK connectors? or someone who will do that for me? thanks.

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by jnorman

hi guys - i just got the km140s in the mail today, and they came with a pair of KA 100 active cables - the ones with regualr body connectors on one end and the small lemo connectors on the other end (meant for legacy neumman caps, i suppose). does anybody now if there is some kind of adapter to change the lemo connectors to standard connectors allowing the use of AK capsules? or a place where you can purchase the AK capsule connectors so i can cut off the lemos and put on standard AK connectors? or someone who will do that for me? thanks.

Do you really need to have the capsule physically separated from the output stage? The accessory for that is LC 3 KA. $350 new... :o(

[jnorman]

brain - it certainly helps acheive a true ORTF config. there is a guy over on taperssection that makes ORTF, NOS and DIN mounting bars for the neumann km100 system - looks sort of like the dedicated schoeps ORTF mic.

[BrianHanke]

Ah, interesting! I hope you can work out a DIY solution. Keep us posted!

[fifthcircle]

Depends on the vintage of the mics. You should be able to unscrew both the capsules and the female lemo. I have the stereo set of active cables and they come off really easily, but it is also a newer vintage. We've got the older ones at a venue where I work and it is a bit more of an issue, but it is doable. Just not easy to flip between configurations.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by jnorman

hi guys - i just got the km140s in the mail today, and they came with a pair of KA 100 active cables - the ones with regular body connectors on one end and the small lemo connectors on the other end (meant for legacy Neumann caps, i suppose). does anybody now if there is some kind of adapter to change the Lemo connectors to standard connectors allowing the use of AK capsules? or a place where you can purchase the AK capsule connectors so i can cut off the lemos and put on standard AK connectors? or someone who will do that for me? thanks.

No - you don't do it like this.

The cables you have screw on the capsile and the Lemo end goes to the XLR module.

Neumann do an adaptor cap which screws to the XLR module and has a Lemo socket in the top - so you don't have to cut anything. I'm surprised this was not supplied with the mics.

The original is as above.

The new one has a short cable to the Lemo socket.

Both are called KA 100, but the new part number is 007330

[jnorman]

john - thanks for that info - very helpful. i have written to martin at neumann about this.

[jnorman]

John - I heard back from martin, and now i think i understand. the problem is that, for the KA 100, the neumann website, and all vendor websites show a picture of the old style LC3 cables instead of the actual KA 100 adapter. In your post, you are also showing a photo of the old style LC3 cables, not a picture of the KA 100 adapter.

the actual KA 100 adpater is a short (about 1" long) unit that you can plug the LEMO connectors on the old LC3 cables into, and then connect directly to the KM100 bodies.


know where i might pick up a used pair of those little gizzies? thanks.

[cida98]

Classical Guitar Please!

I would like to hear the difference between dpa and neumann.

I would appreciate.... Thank you!

[666666]

Look forward to hearing the 140 vs 184 comparison! Thanks!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by jnorman

John - I heard back from martin, and now i think i understand. the problem is that, for the KA 100, the neumann website, and all vendor websites show a picture of the old style LC3 cables instead of the actual KA 100 adapter. In your post, you are also showing a photo of the old style LC3 cables, not a picture of the KA 100 adapter.

the actual KA 100 adaptor is a short (about 1" long) unit that you can plug the LEMO connectors on the old LC3 cables into, and then connect directly to the KM100 bodies.

The *old* KA 100 was "a short (about 1" long) unit that you can plug the LEMO connectors on the old LC3 cables into".

The *new* KA 100 with the article number I quoted is a short cable - the Lemo on the new KA 100 is a *socket* and *not* a plug as you assume.

The picture I posted is linked direct from the Neumann website.

The original KA 100 was a special expensive adaptor - when they changed the main remote cable ir was easier and cheaper to use a short remote cable and replace one end with a Lemo socket.

And this is still needed with the current versions as the floor stand SR 100 has a Lemo cable threaded through it and still needs the KA 100.

[jnorman]

gotcha - i need a pair of the "old" KA100 adapters. who might have them?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by jnorman

gotcha - i need a pair of the "old" KA100 adapters. who might have them?

The new KA 100 adaptor will work just as well - it just extends the remote cable by 0.5m in the process.

It also has the added advantage that, because the Lemo connection is "in-line", you don't have a Lemo connector sticking out of the body that is more easily damaged if knocked.

[John Willett]

I have found a good picture!

See the first attachment.

On the left is the original LC 3 cable with the Lemo plug.

On the right is the new KA 100 with the Lemo socket.

The two Lemos plug together to connect the capsule to the microphone body.

The new LC 3-KA cable looks like what is in the second attachment.

To put it in perspective - the original KA 100 was a custom housing and expensive. I am assuming that the tool wore out - instead of making a new custom tool it was much easier to use the connector that was used for the remote cable and put an in-line Lemo socket on a short cable instead. Exactly the same result with the added convenience that you don't damage the Lemo if it gets knocked.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by jnorman

..... i also have a pair of DPA 4061s and a pair of AT4051s i could throw into the mix, if you think that would be interesting.

Hey Jnorman,

How are you liking the DPA 4061's on flute? I am really curious about these for live recording.

Please let us know.....Thanks

[jnorman]

hiya marco - the 4061s i bought terminate in a single stereo mini-plug, so i have ordered a PFA unit from jon over at naiant, which converts the stereo mini-plug to a pair of standard XLRs. as soon as i get that adapter, i will begin testing the 4061s on flute - i will let you know, and probably post a few samples, perhaps comparing an ORTF pair of km140s against the spaced AB pair of 4061s.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by jnorman

hiya marco - the 4061s i bought terminate in a single stereo mini-plug, so i have ordered a PFA unit from jon over at naiant, which converts the stereo mini-plug to a pair of standard XLRs. as soon as i get that adapter, i will begin testing the 4061s on flute - i will let you know, and probably post a few samples, perhaps comparing an ORTF pair of km140s against the spaced AB pair of 4061s.

Thanks, looking forward to it.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by jnorman

hiya marco - the 4061s i bought terminate in a single stereo mini-plug, so i have ordered a PFA unit from jon over at naiant, which converts the stereo mini-plug to a pair of standard XLRs. as soon as i get that adapter, i will begin testing the 4061s on flute - i will let you know, and probably post a few samples, perhaps comparing an ORTF pair of km140s against the spaced AB pair of 4061s.

Sorry for the (slight) hijack... but I'm wondering if running the pair of 4061s unbalanced (correct?... without benefit of the DPA MicroDot connectors) into a mini-TRS line plug into an unbalanced pair of XLRs and onward might be asking for some additional noise issues... especially in low level source situations.

[jnorman]

harry - we will see... i know that this is the way several folks over at taperssection have their 4061s configured, allowing them to be used with portable recorders that supply 5v phantom at the mini-plug jack (mic in), and also to allow use with regular preamps that supply 48v to XLR ins.

[jnorman]

well guys - i am sorry, but i am going to have to renege on the shootout. i put the 184s up for sale to help defray the cost of the km140s, and they sold immediately, and i had to ship them off. so, i only had one day with both pairs of mics, and the only thing going on in the studio was some rehearsals (flute/piano) with some of my wife's students. i also tried to record myself on acoustic guitar, but frankly, i suck and dont want to embarrass myself on this board...

so, while i did get a chance to get some comparative material, i didnt really get anything worth sharing - it was all really rough.

i will state that upon first listening, i really could not tell the difference at all between the 184s and the 140s. however, after more extensive and critical listening, i did start to hear some subtle nuances. the subtle differences, though, were not really in freq response - both pairs of mics had almost identical high end response, and both are quite smooth and musical (i like the neumann sound).

what i started hearing was more in line with what ben maas has previously commented on regarding reach and depth. it was as if the km140s provided a more extended soundstage reaching from front to rear. again, it was very subtle, but also quite flattering in terms of realism.

in the end, i could easily be happy with either set of mics, but i do now feel that the km140s have a slight edge over the 184s in terms of finesse.

[Uncle Russ]

I hope somebody else will do the shootout.

As for your impressions, Jim, I have listened carefully to comparisons and came to the same conclusion as you. Ben, on the other hand, insists the difference between the mics is much more substantial than what I hear. (That's why he gets the big bucks.)

My impression is that, if you had to choose between the 184 and 140 as your only mic for a session, the difference between them would be all but negligible in comparison with the other things that make up a recording.

Nonetheless, my 184s are my least favorite mics. If anyone wants to buy them, I'll use the money to buy an R84!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Uncle Russ

Ben, on the other hand, insists the difference between the mics is much more substantial than what I hear. (That's why he gets the big bucks.)

A difference that not even Neumann can hear.

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by jnorman

well guys - i am sorry, but i am going to have to renege on the shootout. i put the 184s up for sale to help defray the cost of the km140s, and they sold immediately, and i had to ship them off. so, i only had one day with both pairs of mics, and the only thing going on in the studio was some rehearsals (flute/piano) with some of my wife's students. i also tried to record myself on acoustic guitar, but frankly, i suck and dont want to embarrass myself on this board...

so, while i did get a chance to get some comparative material, i didnt really get anything worth sharing - it was all really rough.

i will state that upon first listening, i really could not tell the difference at all between the 184s and the 140s. however, after more extensive and critical listening, i did start to hear some subtle nuances. the subtle differences, though, were not really in freq response - both pairs of mics had almost identical high end response, and both are quite smooth and musical (i like the neumann sound).

what i started hearing was more in line with what ben maas has previously commented on regarding reach and depth. it was as if the km140s provided a more extended soundstage reaching from front to rear. again, it was very subtle, but also quite flattering in terms of realism.

in the end, i could easily be happy with either set of mics, but i do now feel that the km140s have a slight edge over the 184s in terms of finesse.

Aw, bummer. I'm really curious about what could possibly cause the perceived differences between these two mics. Seems to me this is one of the great unsolved mysteries of the microphone world. I'd do a shootout myself on piano, but I don't have any way to rent or borrow a pair of AK 40s.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

A difference that not even Neumann can hear.

Was that really necessary David?

Yes, I hear a difference. Got rid of my 184s years ago and replaced them with 140's. The 140's are old, the 184's were among the first made. Has Neumann changed anything? (I don't know- just asking as they have a bit of a history doing this- look at the 193 for example).

Have I sat there with both and done a shootout? No. Do I want to spend the time doing that? No. I use both and pretty consistently I get a feeling that the 184 is not as smooth on the top end. Not that the 140 is smooth- it is still a pretty bright mic, but especially when using them on strings, I've had much more usable results with the 140.

The other difference is a functional one. I had tons of problems with my 184's when it came to phantom supplies. If they weren't giving a full 48v and enough current all the time, I had major oscillating issues. That was also combined with major problems with interference - especially from cellular sources. I have not had a single problem with any of that since going to the 140.

I know what Neumann says, but after all these experieces from real-world usage, I just cannot trust what they say.

--Ben

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Have I sat there with both and done a shootout? No. Do I want to spend the time doing that? No.

I'll do it! Just somebody tell me where I can get a pair of AK 40 capsules on loan in the LA area...