recording jazz guitar - mics & preamp

[jerome67]

Hi guys, I'm a professional jazz guitarplayer trying to make a demo. I have a Gibson L5 hollowbody jazzguitar and a Marble Bluebird tube guitar amp. Looking for the right mics and preamp to record it. Just to be clear: I'm looking for a traditional jazz tone: warm, smooth and 'acoustic', no distortion, no chorus and so on. The idea is to just capture the sound of the guitar and amp basically, but making the sound big enough to stand out in the mix (the guitar has the lead). So far I have been using the Rode NT3 and the Shure SM57, without a dedicated preamp, just the one in my audio interface. The result was a weak tone that I could not boost enough no matter what plugins I used.

In this thread a Beyer dynamic M380, Coles 4038 and a Beyer M130 are recommended:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...recording.html
Any other suggestions? And how about a preamp to go with it?

Thanks,
Jerome

[ajfarber]

I like to record an archtop jazz guitar through a tube amp like the one you've got. I mic the amp with a ribbon. An RCA44 is great, but any good ribbon will do the trick like an AEA r84, Coles 4038, Royer etc...

A tube LDC or SDC will be fine as well. Try to get a fat sounding tube mic pre.

[jerome67]

Thanks Andy! Will look into those mics. And good to meet other jazzplayers on this forum (I'm new here).

[henryrobinett]

Yes, I like ribbons. An RCA 77dx would be great and a 44 would be ideal, but perhaps overkill.

I have an use Royer 121, AEA 84R, Peluso R-14 and TR-14 all with great success. The Pelusos are a little warmer. Perhaps it's more proximity effect.

I also like to put, sometimes, a SDC on the actual guitar, so you get the sound of the strings and fingers you can mix in to taste.

[jerome67]

That's some good inside info, thanks for that, Henry. What kind of preamp do you use? Do you use a compressor too or do you compress afterwards in your DAW?

[henryrobinett]

I don't compress to "tape", usually. But I normally do have a safety track with a limiter in case things get out of my control. But I rarely, more like never, have to use it.

I normally use Millennia, or used to. TD-1 very often. But lately I've just been using my Metric Halo ULN-8 for everything.

So yes, I hate committing while recording. I always compress in my DAW afterwards. I use either the compressor in the ULN-8 or a UAD Fairchild or both, gently.

Guitar because of the sometimes wide transients and attacks, you need to compress/limit. Even some of the classic Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell, Green, Wes sides, you can hear the opto compressor sucking it all in.

[unsung]

Don't know what your budget looks like but this would be a nice combo m101 microphone preamplifier and Sennheiser USA - Studio Microphone, MD 421-II, Broadcasting Microphone - Professional Audio

This would be a great setup for jazz guit !----------and not too horribly expensive.

[jerome67]

That ULN-8 looks like a great all-in-one solution. I wonder if it works on PC though, don't see any system reqs on their site and only Macs are mentioned.

The Grace design m101 looks great too, especially like that ribbon mic mode.
Was thinking also about the A Designs Audio. This one is all tubes and might give me that warm sound. But hey, I'm just a beginner when it comes to studio engineering!

As for mics, I'm tempted to buy a ribbon. The Royers sound great, just want to check out those Peluso R-14 and TR-14s Henry was talking about. Looking for sound samples on the net right now.

Thanks everybody so far, appreciate it!

[DannyL]

Shure is now making Crowley and Tripp ribbon mics. The KSM 353 might be the ribbon answer to your needs.

Shure - Microphones - KSM353 Premier Bi-directional Ribbon Microphone

I would also look at a decent condensor: surprisingly, I have used a shure SM81 on guitar amps for many different types of electric guitar. They always work very well and certainly won't break the bank. Other options include Gefel M910, a Neumann KM84, if you can find one for sale...very different from the modern KM184, or a Schoeps with a ck4 capsule are just a few of things that come to mind.

Someone mentioned a Sennheiser MD421, but if you don't like the SM57, I am pretty sure you will not like the MD421. No they do not sound alike, but both are dynamics with an upper midrange boost. The MD421 can withstand incredible db levels, but it tends to make things sound very harsh.

What audio interface are you using? Are you using a laptop or a desktop? What is your operating system? What is your DAW?

Depending on your budget, there are loads of mic pres that will fit the bill:
John Hardy mic pres are really great. Millenia are good. Grace are good, I really like the ATI 8MX2, which I use every day. ATI/API makes some excellent products: API Audio Products I also really like their 2500 compressor.

Best Regards;

Danny

[kafka]

Personally, I usually go DI when recording archtop. But when I don't, I like to put an LDC about a foot out from the speaker, just because an archtop is so much more like a voice than other guitars. For this I like to use the Peluso 2247. As Henry mentioned, you can put an SDC on the guitar itself to pick up that other little stuff. Or, just sit close enough to the mic so it picks it up.

[jerome67]

Danny, I have a RME Fireface 400. I have a PC desktop with Windows 7 64 bit and Cubase 5.
Will check out that Shure ribbon.

Just spoke to a pro audio salesman. He said a ribbon mic would be a good idea, but adviced me not to be an all tube mic preamp because you would keep on adding mids. Makes sense. So that A-design MP2A is not the best option.

'More like a voice than other guitars'. Like that one, Kafka! thumbsup
I was thinking to use the ribbon up close and a LDC at some distance, half ambient. Using a SDC for fingering details is also a great idea.
Wasn't too impressed by the sm57 so far, so I doubt if the Sennheiser MD421 will...

[unsung]

Originally Posted by jerome67

Danny, I have a RME Fireface 400. I have a PC desktop with Windows 7 64 bit and Cubase 5.
Will check out that Shure ribbon.

Just spoke to a pro audio salesman. He said a ribbon mic would be a good idea, but adviced me not to be an all tube mic preamp because you would keep on adding mids. Makes sense. So that A-design MP2A is not the best option.

'More like a voice than other guitars'. Like that one, Kafka! thumbsup
I was thinking to use the ribbon up close and a LDC at some distance, half ambient. Using a SDC for fingering details is also a great idea.
Wasn't too impressed by the sm57 so far, so I doubt if the Sennheiser MD421 will...

Pro audio salesman!

Anyways, The ribbon mike-tube pre combo seems to have worked out for Chet Baker OK. And about a zillion other cats of the 30's 40's 50's!!

[cortisol]

I like Shure SM58's on combo amps from ultra clean to slighty over driven settings. For heavily overdriven and dirt guitars I actually don't like Shure dynamic mics so much!

Rather than theorizing about which mic this and that I'd like to point out that musician with ear training - even with perfect pitch etc aren't necessarily good at hearing the frequency spectrum for it's spectral balance and content. So maybe you aren't placing the mic or even optimising your amp placement within your room to get a good signal.

The ear is very good at letting the brain filter out when the room sounds bad when the sound it is listening to is right in the range of the human voice (ie the guitar is right in that range).

I like to lift combo amps off the floor and place then on a chair with the back of the chair stopping the open back from being quite so open. So I am creating a bit of sound pressure build up at the back of the amp and I'm taking away floor reflections from getting into the mic.

Take your SM57 and place it on the grill cloth, lined up with the edge of the cone where it meets the cap in the centre. Move the mic forward and back (with headphones on) up to 3 inches away and no more. Listen to the tone and hear if you want the sound to be more open (further away no more than 3 inches) or more intimate (Closer to the grill cloth). Now keep the head of the mic where it is but change the angle from being perpendicular to the cloth and as you change the angle listen to the top frequencies as this will change the most but keep listening to the overall tone too. You may have rolled too much trble off at the guitar or the amp so make little tweeks to hear for an improvement in the sound as it hits the mic. At this point you might try playing with the angle of the mic again.

I like to mic up semi acoustic and archtop guitars with a condenser on the strings, picking up more of the tone of the attacks and string sound. We don't want room sound and early reflections as we would with an acoustic guitar recording. I might mic the guitar up near the headstock if I want some sparkle and brightness or I might mic the guitar up around the 9th fret. I'm not looking for body resonance, I'm trying to get the tone of the strings and the tone of the attack; be it made with a plectrum on round wound string or with fingernails etc. But I don't want anything too direct by pointing the mic where the plectrum or fingers strike.

I then combine the signals in the ratio I want and bus them to a compressor and reverb to make any subtle teaks to the sustain and room sound. But I do avoid room sound at the point of capture.

I might filter out what I don't want from the guitar mic.

Hope this gets you thinking about miking. And remember you have to place the second mic whilst listening to both mics.

Peace,
cortisol

[jerome67]

Thanks for pointing that out Cortisol. It's true that mic placement is essential. I have experimented extensively with the SM57. Haven't tried using a condenser at the 9th fret or the guitarhead, and I will definitely. I was using the condenser about 1,5 meter (3.28 foot) before the amp. I thought it improved the sound. But this is an untreated room and it may not have been a good idea after all.
Are you talking about a hardware compressor and reverb? Or plugins? Are using a mic preamp?

Was listening to a Ronny Jordan cd this week. It is this sound that I'm after. Amazing how a clean guitar can cut through a mix like that.

[cortisol]

Man it's been a while since I heard any Ronnie Jordan! Yeah he get a great sound and he's fun to listen to.

When I add a compressor it is usually in software. And it's just a mater of auditioning and seeing if anything positive or charming happens. Lots of software compressors up until recent years have been bland and added no tonal shifts. One I used to like quite a bit was Wave Hammer from Soundforge. It's been a while since I had Soundforge on my computer so now I use the ones that come with Sonar PE namely Vintage Channel, the Linear Multi-band and the Sonitus Compressor and Sonitus Multi-band.

If a compressor detracts from the sound then just try something else. I love to draw in automation be it volume or even automating a plugin such as an eq or the bands of a multi-band compressor. So I might exagerate dynamics or even out a phrase etc.

I would also dry DI'ing your guitar. These days I like to DI guitars and combine the DI signal with a reamped signal.

Good luck,
Cortisol

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I also like to put, sometimes, a SDC on the actual guitar, so you get the sound of the strings and fingers you can mix in to taste.

This.
I always try to record the acoustic sound of an archtop electric guitar. You'll probably only use a tiny smidgen of the mic track in the mix, but it really helps provide definition and "air" when you're trying to get that typically dark jazz guitar sound to cut through a band without having to turn it up inordinately loud.

[7rojo7]

WYHIWYG, make the sound you want come out of your amp first, if you havw contro; over your instrument and a good monitor you control thr dynamics. the rest is cake.
Small gtr amp? my go to's are JV74, M260, Stedman N90, EV PL80, Brauner PhantomV.
Any good solid pre will do
If you want a more acoustic sound from your gtr, I would put a mic on your gtr and mix it 'in your amp' and mic that
If you use a hper cardioide or fig 8, just put it where the amp sounds best to your ear, put up a little isolation if there's too much ambience, move it if it doesn;t sound good, think of the speakers as a solid representation of what you're recording, it's not going to get much better than that

[jerome67]

If you want a more acoustic sound from your gtr, I would put a mic on your gtr and mix it 'in your amp' and mic that

Mix it in your amp and mic that?

[The Listener]

The combination of SM57 and any ribbon works well in my experience. I currently use the inexpensive T.bone RB500 ribbon mic.

SM57 recorded guitar comes to life with some proper 1176 compression treatment and some Pultec-style EQ... I used UAD versions, now experiment also with similar stuff from Softube and Nebula... But a combination of UAD 1176LN and their Pultec-pro with the right settings make SM57 a great guitar mic... Here's one latest example of SM57 with RB500 in action: link

edit: also take care to position the two mics while listening in mono - where it sounds nice and full is your position... your current set up with 57 & Rode NT3 could have given you some phase issues that might also result in a "weak" tone... Ribbons are figure 8 and it is also helpful that the other mic is in their null position so you get automatically less phase issues and of course they sound so natural and smooth - ideal for jazz... NT3 on the other hand - on a guitar amp... not the first choice...

[jerome67]

That's a great tone you got there Listener, and some very nice music too!thumbsup

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by jerome67

That's a great tone you got there Listener, and some very nice music too!thumbsup

Thanks, but I can only take half the credit for the tone and none for the music. I only chose mics and suggested the position and did mixing for them.

If you are seriously looking at those expensive ribbons that were suggested - I would advise you to try a combination of Sennheiser e906 dynamic hypercardioid (if you can't get along with SM57) and T.bone RB500 ribbon first (both together cost no more than 260EU)

[beingmf]

not joking - i've never heard any complaints about amps close mic'd with a PL-5 in a jazz context. everybody always thought this is "exactly how this amp sounds". add another (ribbon) mic for a roomier sound an you're done.
that's what worked and still works for me...

[7rojo7]

most nice amps have more than 1 input or they make some thingamajig already for this purpose (I know of 1 that has a C-ducer, a magnetic pickup and a mic that gets mixed in a little box and gives instrumeant, mic and line level outs of the mix), I would stay as simple as possible, something that's already been agreed on as a good sound and record that, that's what I'm saying

[Jungle Jazz]

I've had good luck with an EV N/D468, right up on the amp. It provides a pretty natural sound, and the off-axis rejection is terrific, especially in a live situation.