Classical Piano Recording with 2 mics

[Torea]

I'm planning on recording my friend play several classical piano songs. It will be in a fairly good, mid sized performance hall, on a grand piano (don't know what brand). I have two mics (MXL 4000, MXL 603) which I've used before with this performer and he liked the sound (for what it was at least). The mics will go into a PreSonus FireBox (2 XLR inputs) that will connect to Logic Pro on my MacBook by firewire.

Does anyone have any techniques that have worked for them that I could try? I was thinking of trying a M/S because the 4000 can do a figure-8, the 603 sounded pretty good on the piano the last time I used it, and I haven't tried a M/S technique yet. But if there is a better/easier method, I'd love to hear it.


Thanks for the help =)
G

[BoxSpringStudios]

Hey Galen,

I would try the 4000 on the bass strings and the 603 on the higher strings, seeing as you would typically want to get more low end out of the larger capsule in the 4000. If you end up miking close and you're in a nice sounding room, try the omni setting to eliminate proximity effect while also picking up natural room acoustics. Let me know how it turns out! Piano is always fun.

[BrianHanke]

In my experience the ideal classical piano sound comes from a pair of small-diaphragm omni mics placed further back from the instrument. In your case though I think M/S would give very good results.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

In my experience the ideal classical piano sound comes from a pair of small-diaphragm omni mics placed further back from the instrument. In your case though I think M/S would give very good results.

I think I agree with this.

For classical piano recitals I always use a pair of SDC omni mics - normally about 20cm apart and about 2m back from the piano. But the actual position and distance will vary with piano, room and the music performed (there is no hard and fast rule).

You really *do* need omnis, or you lose all the bottom end of the piano and it can sound thin - I did test this out once by recording a Steinway with a pair of MKH 20 omnis and an MS rig of MKH 30/40 (cardioid) - I had to do a recording in an awkward room and tried the to set-ups in about three different positions each before choosing the pair and placing for the final recording.

With the two mics you have I think the best option will be MS - but have the mid set to omni, it should help the bottom end.

For a solo piano recital you do really need to mic stereo rather than two mics as spots.

[Recording David]

Check out this thread:

What's up with classical piano recordings these days?

thumbsup

[Torea]

Wow thanks for all the suggestions.

The last time I recorded this friend, I did use the 4000 on the bass and the 603 on the mid/high area. It sounded ok, and he liked it, but I'd like to try some new stuff.

Unfortunately, I can't yet afford more mics at the moment, but maybe in the future.

I wanted to try M/S technique because I've heard that it allows for more flexibility when mixing. I can only change the pattern of the MXL 4000 (cardioid, figure-8, and omni), the MXL 603 is cardioid only.

Do you guys have any suggestions for where to start placement? Obviously you can't give me an exact perfect position, but a starting place would be nice so it isn't all guesswork.


Thanks again,
G

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by galens5

Do you guys have any suggestions for where to start placement? Obviously you can't give me an exact perfect position, but a starting place would be nice so it isn't all guesswork.

I would start by placing the mics in the middle of the curve of the piano (open lid), probably a couple of feet back. That's usually the spot where the sound is richest and most balanced between bass and treble.

It's possible to get a good sound closer up, but then you start getting more mechanical noise (hammers, dampers, pedal, etc.) and would probably need to add reverb. Since you said you have a nice room to work with I don't think there's any need to go in really close.

[Torea]

Awesome, I will try that. Thanks for the help =)

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by galens5

Do you guys have any suggestions for where to start placement? Obviously you can't give me an exact perfect position, but a starting place would be nice so it isn't all guesswork.

I did that in my earlier post - about ear height and 2m from the piano is a good start.

But - get him to play and you go and listen in the room. Move around and listen from various positions - where it sounds best to your ears , put the mics there.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

I would start by placing the mics in the middle of the curve of the piano (open lid), probably a couple of feet back. That's usually the spot where the sound is richest and most balanced between bass and treble.

It's possible to get a good sound closer up, but then you start getting more mechanical noise (hammers, dampers, pedal, etc.) and would probably need to add reverb. Since you said you have a nice room to work with I don't think there's any need to go in really close.

This is similar to what I said, but I start from 2 metres (2 yards) rather than 2 feet.

You need to get the right balance between direct and reverbarent sound - so listen carefully as this will be different for every room.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by galens5

Hello, sorry if this is in the wrong place or somethin like that, it'd my first post.

Anyway, I'm planning on recording my friend play several classical piano songs. It will be in a fairly good, mid sized performance hall, on a grand piano (don't know what brand). I have two mics (MXL 4000, MXL 603) which I've used before with this performer and he liked the sound (for what it was at least). The mics will go into a PreSonus FireBox (2 XLR inputs) that will connect to Logic Pro on my MacBook by firewire.

Does anyone have any techniques that have worked for them that I could try? I was thinking of trying a M/S because the 4000 can do a figure-8, the 603 sounded pretty good on the piano the last time I used it, and I haven't tried a M/S technique yet. But if there is a better/easier method, I'd love to hear it.


Thanks for the help =)
G

Hi,

The use and choice of techniques, as well as miking will really very much depends on repertoire, instrument, individual touch of the performer, and the room. For example, Bach needs much more transparent texture and less hall effect, on the other hand, Rachmaninov will need lots of "meat". Beethoven will need more dense texture in the mids, on the other hand, Ravel or Debussy much more "air" and hall effect. One thing for sure, you don't want use close miking or one mic for lower and another for upper strings for classical.

I frequently use M/S. While you have the 4000, for "Side" I'd actually recommend there a ribbon, as it is much more forgiving, has an excellent directivity in horisontal plane, and its limited pattern in vertical plane can be benefitial to reduce floor reflections.
Also, there are omni capsules available for the 603 so and I would not afraid to use omnies for "Mid".

My another favorite (but again, only for certain kind of music) is Jecklin disk. Here are the couple of commercial recordings. The first I made with Jecklin. (I have to say, every single pianists I played it for just adored this one, esp. in the middle, when the bass comes in):

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/Track13Wagner.mp3

And the second is M/S with my custom ribbons--the M is cardioid, and S is fig8. The same hall, same performer, same instrument:

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman...ioTrack_01.mp3

Best, Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design

[Obitheincredible]

I think Midside would work fine. At the very least try it.

[didier.brest]

Thanks, Marik. very nice piano sample. Nice room, I guess ?
What distance are the mics from the piano? It seems that they are at least at 2m ?

[tenor39]

Here's a picture of me setting up a stereo LDC in M/S as a piano mic for the Gerschwin Piano Concerto. It worked fairly well, though I'm not sure I would choose that technique again. As John said, SDC omni's really work best for solo piano, but I have use some LDC's for this, too. I'm also 35lbs. lighter now.

[brle]

Originally Posted by John Willett

You really *do* need omnis, or you lose all the bottom end of the piano and it can sound thin - I did test this out once by recording a Steinway with a pair of MKH 20 omnis and an MS rig of MKH 30/40 (cardioid) - I had to do a recording in an awkward room and tried the to set-ups in about three different positions each before choosing the pair and placing for the final recording.

True, but funnily i had exactly the opposite situation, where MKH20 gave me too much "low energy" on Steinway D in one church, so i chosed pair of MKH40 instead.

Here´s an short excerpt of the session.

[Torea]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I did that in my earlier post - about ear height and 2m from the piano is a good start.

But - get him to play and you go and listen in the room. Move around and listen from various positions - where it sounds best to your ears , put the mics there.

Yep, I did just that the other day, about 5 and a half feet away sounds good to my ears, so a little under six and a half feet up =P

Thanks for all the help from everyone, we should be recording in a week or two. I also just got an Audix F15 which I'd like to try out in the mid position just to see.

I'm thinking of setting up a room mic or two as well, just to see what that would add to the sound. I'll try to post sound samples and maybe pictures of the set up once it's done =D

Thanks again for the help,
G

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by brle

True, but funnily i had exactly the opposite situation, where MKH20 gave me too much "low energy" on Steinway D in one church, so i chosed pair of MKH40 instead.

Here´s an short excerpt of the session.

Had a similar experience recording organ in a relatively small church. A pair of MKH8040 gave better results than MKH8020. I had no options for other mic placements and in that position the MKH8040's turned out best.


/Peter

[Petrus]

I think stereo is mandatory for any serious solo piano, so MS is your only possibility with those mics. Distance and height must be found out by testing.

Just a while back I did a recording of Steinway D in a fairly revibrant church: a pair of Senn MKH8020, 38 cm AB, 2.8 meters away, 2.8 meters high. Aligned with the open lid. I think it turned out good, with good feeling of space.

"Church of the Rock" in Helsinki, self made 38 cm carbon fibre tube stereo bar.

[Torea]

Originally Posted by Petrus

I think stereo is mandatory for any serious solo piano, so MS is your only possibility with those mics. Distance and height must be found out by testing.

Just a while back I did a recording of Steinway D in a fairly revibrant church: a pair of Senn MKH8020, 38 cm AB, 2.8 meters away, 2.8 meters high. Aligned with the open lid. I think it turned out good, with good feeling of space.

"Church of the Rock" in Helsinki, self made 38 cm carbon fibre tube stereo bar.

Wow, that place must sound amazing haha

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Petrus

Just a while back I did a recording of Steinway D in a fairly revibrant church: a pair of Senn MKH8020, 38 cm AB, 2.8 meters away, 2.8 meters high. Aligned with the open lid. I think it turned out good, with good feeling of space.

Very nice photo. Please, could you offer to us a bit of audio too ?

[Matti]

Its a beautiful place!
Group of tourists in the pic. ,I guess

Matti

[Petrus]

Here is a 2 minute sample of piano in Temppeliaukion kirkko. A pair of Sennheiser MKH8020 38 cm AB fed straight to Sound Devices 722.

[mljung]

Very Nice!

[didier.brest]

Yes it's splendid! I could have afford a bit more room but it might have been paid by less definition. May be a second pair of mics would have allow conciliating both advantages?

Thank you for sharing.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

May be a second pair of mics would have allow conciliating both advantages?

I tried that approach on an organ recording, but it mudded the sound down. I rather have a clean one pair take than fight the phasing and comb filter effects from several mics. I did not spend much time setting up, while the pianist was warming up I tested 3 distances and this was the middle one. On each time the mics were lined up with plane of the lid (no straight lid reflections, clear line of sight to the strings from the mics). Besides I wanted to be able to take a bus (it was -20C and my car has an old battery) and all gear exept the stand was packed in a small daypack. That meant just 2 channels with my SD722.

That "hole in the rock" church is a fairly popular concert & recording venue, from solo to full symphony.

[mwhouston]

Through a mutual acquaintance I met Phillip Gelbach, Philllip Gelbach - Welcome , over the phone. After some discussion Phillip kindly agreed for me to record some of his piano playing.

The set-up, which was held in a reverberant small room in his beautiful old home with 10' ceilings, was Behringer T-47 tube mics, tube preamps and 24Bit/96khz A2D. Sony Sound Forge was the software used to for recording on a new laptop under Win7.


I placed the left mic mid-piano (lid on small stick) with the centre of the mic smack-dab in the middle of the lid. I wanted half from the piano and half from the back wall/off the lid where the piano was pushed close to. So direct/direct-reflected mix.

The right mic was placed at the same height but further down the piano. The mics about 24” apart and 36” back from the piano. Close but not in, near but not against. I want some air and some room re-enforcement.


And I got a big fat piano sound (wall/lid mix) with detail, air, texture and resolute attack (out of the guts direct). Phillip played the first piece after levels were set in a run through and was happy with the sound from phones. I held most levels down below -6db and on occasions (through the six hour session) hitting some -2 and 0.0dbs (once and I knew it was coming but I wanted it).


We recorded enough for a 60min CD mainly classical with three Jazz tracks at the end. From the 24Bit/96Khz data I cut a DVD-Audio disc (DVD-A) using discwelder which plays on my Custom Analogue upgraded Oppo 980H-stunning! I use only tube preamps and a single end triode power amp. I also cut a red book CD and 192K mp3-ed the Jazz tracks for friends.

The material is TOTALLY un-processed. It is raw to disc and RAW to the cut DVD-A and CD. No EQ, compression or any other digital tweaking-crap at all. As mentioned it sounds like a 20 year old Kawai baby grand in your own home. Natural, detailed clean and clear with bite and snap.

Two in-expensive tube mics, tube preamps and A2D in a tiny crowded room produced a very BIG sound with cutting neutrality. Just the piano and you. Thanks Phillip. We have named the day “Woodville Sessions”.

The Woodville Sessions (limited release) are available on request. E-mail Phillip. Want a DVD-A, e-mail me retro-thermionic .

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by Marik

Hi,
for "Side" I'd actually recommend there a ribbon, as it is much more forgiving

In what way is it more forgiving than a condenser?

[Matti]

Nonsense, I would use as similar mics as possible for MS, think a bit

Matti