Session with pedal harp on sunday - advice?

[jnorman]

i have produced 5 CDs for the flute/harp duo, RoseWynde. for each of the previous CDs, i have close-miced the harp with spaced pairs of cards (i've used dpa 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, km184s, c481s - all have done well). while i admit, the harp sound is pretty nice on the previous CDs, there has always been a bit of a problem with balancing the close-miced harp with the more distantly miced flute parts.

at any rate, the harpist now says, "no more close micing". so for this first harp session for RoseWynde's new CD, i will be using a more distant mic setup. for the flute, my normal setup is an ORTF setup about 7 feet out from the flute.

so, for the harp, i was thinking about setting up two ORTF pairs - one pair at about 4 feet out, and the second pair about 7 feet out, and then using the pair that sounded the most realistic and which balances best with the flute parts. the harp and flute parts will be recorded separately, not together, as is the desire of the players.

does that sound about right, or should i try something different, like an ORTF pair out at some distance plus a single or pair of mics close to the sound board as spots to blend with the more distant pair? or other type setup? what might you suggest? i also have recently picked up a pair of DPA 4061s, but do not yet have the phantom power adapters, so i wont be able to use them this weekend, but will be able to use them on future sessions if needed. thanks for any advice.

[boojum]

Jim, you can run the 4061's on a regular electret battery box and then xvert them to XLR along the way. I can drive down and lend a hand if you like on Sunday. I have a concert here on Saturday. Let me know. I can bring along some mics, too, if you wish.

We will miss seeing you tonight in PDX Not to worry, though, no talk of recording, mics, recorders, venues, compression or shuffling.

Cheers

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by jnorman

i have produced 5 CDs for the flute/harp duo, RoseWynde. for each of the previous CDs, i have close-miced the harp with spaced pairs of cards (i've used dpa 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, km184s, c481s - all have done well). while i admit, the harp sound is pretty nice on the previous CDs, there has always been a bit of a problem with balancing the close-miced harp with the more distantly miced flute parts.

at any rate, the harpist now says, "no more close micing". so for this first harp session for RoseWynde's new CD, i will be using a more distant mic setup. for the flute, my normal setup is an ORTF setup about 7 feet out from the flute.

so, for the harp, i was thinking about setting up two ORTF pairs - one pair at about 4 feet out, and the second pair about 7 feet out, and then using the pair that sounded the most realistic and which balances best with the flute parts. the harp and flute parts will be recorded separately, not together, as is the desire of the players.

does that sound about right, or should i try something different, like an ORTF pair out at some distance plus a single or pair of mics close to the sound board as spots to blend with the more distant pair? or other type setup? what might you suggest? i also have recently picked up a pair of DPA 4061s, but do not yet have the phantom power adapters, so i wont be able to use them this weekend, but will be able to use them on future sessions if needed. thanks for any advice.

Ribbon microphones sound GREAT on harps.

Harpist I have worked with, including Alice Chalifoux of the Cleveland Orchestra, usually don't like their harps miked close up since you can hear a lot of things like pedal noise which they do not want on a recording. Most times for a solo harp recording I used a pair of AKG Blueline cardioid microphones in an coherent X-Y setup about 6-8 feet back from the harpist and they seemed to like the pickup and the sound in a reverberant hall. You have to walk around the harp to see where the best placement for the microphones would be as all harps sound slightly different in different positions.

Best of luck and let us know how it went.

[summer_room]

this is what I did last time I recorded harp (renaissance-type), mic is Royer sf12...we were very happy with the results.

-jon

[David Spearritt]

In my experience, harp has two main technical problems to overcome when recording. Firstly you need VERY quiet mics, because the harp can play the tiniest pianissimi. So ribbons are out, unless the music is all loud. Secondly, it is a very low mid and bass boomy instrument, so omnis are probably out.

I have had great success with a Schoeps MS pair, make sure the preamp and matrix are quiet. The mics need to be closer than you first think.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

In my experience, harp has two main technical problems to overcome when recording. Firstly you need VERY quiet mics, because the harp can play the tiniest pianissimi. So ribbons are out, unless the music is all loud. Secondly, it is a very low mid and bass boomy instrument, so omnis are probably out.

I have had great success with a Schoeps MS pair, make sure the preamp and matrix are quiet. The mics need to be closer than you first think.

It all depends on the harp, the repertory and where it is being recorded.

Also some of the new ribbon microphone preamps are very quiet. I have a Robbie preamp that is probably the quietest preamp I have ever used and I understand the AEA ribbon preamp is even quieter. Omnis would probably have to be equalized or adjusted by ear for best pickup but again it is dependent on the hall and the pieces played. Like with most things in remote recording so much depends on the hall, the location of the performer, the repertory and the skill of the engineer doing the recording. There are no black and white answers. All ideas are worth exploring.

[jnorman]

thanks for the comments. i had the session today, and we spent most of the day experimenting with setups. we started out in a larger open space in my great room with partial wooden floors and perhaps 8000 cu.ft. volume. while the area was pleasing to the harpist as she played, the resultant tracks were wrought with extraneous noise, and a tad boomy (ORTF pairs at 4 feet and 7 feet).

added some rugs under the harp for more tries - some reduction in resonances, but still suffering from room noises. moved into the studio where it is much drier, and i immediately liked the tracks better - way cleaner, no extra noises - still needed to roll off the bottom at around 75hz and give a slight boost at 200hz, but very useable. then back out into the big area in a couple of different spots. tried a few live takes with both flute and harp. both players were very good, seasoned pros, which always helps things go smoothly, and i got to hear some pretty amazing stuff through the headphones.

we spent lots of time listening to the various setups,which was nice (and such a rare thing to get to do). in the end we decided on the studio space with an ORTF pair of KM184s at about 4 feet out and 5 feet up, looking slightly down at the soundboard. we laid down a scratch harp track of the 10 minute piece, and tomorrow i will get a scratch flute part down and do a rough mix to let the players hear where we are headed. next weekend, we will start with actual recording - but by then i will have a pair of DPA 4061 omnis to try out also, so we will spend some time playing with those too..

how nice to get to spend a day with such wonderful musicians - it is just the kind of day i long for all the time...

[MBishopSFX]

I second Tom Bethel's suggestion to use a good stereo ribbon mic. I've had great success using an R-88, SF-12 or SF-24. The preamp is critical to this as preamp noise can become an issue. An AEA TRP or RPQ or Millennia HV3D with the ribbon mic option will handle the job very nicely.

Two good omnis such as the Sanken CO-100K or DPA 4006 on the outside usually complete the picture.

I don't think I've ever employed EQ on a harp session. Microphone choice and placement always took care of tone issues.

.

[jnorman]

hi michael - i have tried ribbons many times. i have owned pairs of royer r-121s, coles 4038s, fatheads, and shinybox's. i used the r-121s on harp for their first CD, but i always felt the ribbons performed a bit inconsistently, perhaps because i never had preamps that had a way to properly match the impedence. the last attempt at ribbons was using fatheads with the Triton audio Fethead units, which supposedly address both the gain problems and impedecne problems, but in the end, i wound up going back to the condenser sound. however, i would love, at some point, to play with an SF24...