Miking a Big Band

[dougm]

It would depend on the band and the room. Also if you are doing a direct to 2 track recording or if you are multitracking for later mixing.

2 track I would find the best spot the blend sounds good in. You wold have to walk around in front of them, perhaps plugging on ear and listen. Perhaps the soloists can stand. I've done this and it works pretty good.

If you are going to mix it later, I would set the band up in a square, with the four sections facing each other. Two mics per section, and determine what to tell the soloists to do.

I'll be interested to see what other folks have to say on this. The last big band I recorded we used a 16 track, so more was available for us.

Doug

[NorthCountry]

Thanks Doug.

I am going to multitrack and it's a live performance so I can't move the sections around. They'll be stacked one-behind-the-other in standard big band configuration.

Is it crazy to think that I can get it all with a properly-positioned stereo pair?

Thanks again, Doug. Any others?

[Legacy]

Hi NorthCountry,

I applaude your choice to have a stereo pair. Do you mean for the stereo pair to be on the whole band or just on the brass / saxes? Either way the 4006 in the right place, as you know, will go a long way to set up the soundstage. The only concern that comes to mind is depending on how you are miking the rhythm section determines whether the stereo pair only on the brass will allow them to sit right in the mix. If the spots on the rhythm are too close then you may end up with the brass seeming farther away than the rhythm when you mix. You might consider having another pair a little closer miking the whole brass/sax section -maybe cardiod X-Y style in addition to the 4006 omnis. Specific positioning is hard not knowing the group or room etc. but I would try to get a nice full and direct sound with the 06s and add in another slightly closer pair of cardiods.

Best,
Silas

[NorthCountry]

Silas,

Very grateful for the response. I'd already considered the distant vs. present dilemma, since I've been bitten by it before in a very different context.

I know nothing about the room and since it's 4 hours away, can't get there before the gig to scope it out. I like your idea of an extra x-y pair a bit closer to the group to give it a little more presence. However, I would imagine that mixing the two stereo pairs together during mixdown might be a phasing nightmare, but you never know 'til you try it right?

Thanks again for the tips.

Anyone else???

[Legacy]

Hi North Country,

I've never had a phase issue mixing two pairs like that on location that I wasn't able to get around with mic placement or worst case - channel delay in the mix. Especially if the 06s are spaced omni and they are not a lot farther from the instruments than the spot mics. If the arrival times of the sound to the 06s is not much later than the arrival to the spots it will work nicely. Its mostly the different polar pattern that I think gives it more presence and punch.

Sounds like fun! Theres nothing like having a live big band peal your face off...

Best,
Silas

[Roland]

As you are going in blind, I would make an effort to secure a few more recording channels (either stand alone pre-amps or a larger console). I'm assumming that you have enough tracks to record too? My considerations would be for a spot on Bass (mic or DI) and a bass drum mic for kit if there is one and enough spot mics to pick up soloists. Ideally a job like this would be done with a mic per instrument (several on kit) and a "head" pair to pick an overall balance. Hopefully the head pair will get the balance you are looking for, but this can be a little hit and miss even with good pro players.

Regards


Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

Hey, I love my 4007's, and I bet the 4006's will be ideal, BUT, I'd still take those four other channels and put some directional mics in front of your wind players that can serve as blend mics, OR spot mics for ww or the brass players who are upstage of them. Lots of great options here, but I'd make sure I'm covered with some tools and some choices for the mix, while I still agree that a good spaced pair may be all you need, but I'd still take as much as I can get. With Big Bands, I always want a touch of something more....
Cheers!
-J

[Remoteness]

JvB,

Sounds like a good plan!

I'm thinking out loud...

Get that stereo pair in from of the horn section.
And position it for the best over all blend.
Then, place the four directional mics in front of the woodwinds.

In a perfect world, I'd place one mic on the Bari.
The cat that's also playing flute will get their own mic.
The remaining two mics would be shared between each pair of horns -- Perhaps Altos & Tenors or something to that effect.

Or maybe you can use three mics and pair up all six horns.
Then use the forth mic for the flute or whichever instrument needs more help projecting.

Or how about three pairs of mics -- Two mics per row?

Just an idea...

I hope this helped.

[audioez]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Or how about three pairs of mics -- Two mics per row?

couldn't of said it better

[wolfhound]

in most big bands, tenor sax one is the "solo chair" so you might want to put one mic near him if he's going to be doing a lot of solos.

[Remoteness]

wolfhound,

Yes, I thought the same thing -- place a single mic on the Bari & another one on Tenor one, then pair up the rest of them...

Then I went back and read NorthCountry's original post.
He said, "Soloists will all be in place and not in a solo position."

Either way we have many options to choose from.

[7rojo7]

Yeah you have to think options!
in any case it's important to be close to the director and ask about the arrangements and maybe find compromises based on everyone's needs
musicians want to hear each other, you want to isolate for control, the director wants to hear it comin on strong from where he is (hint N°1) stereo pair (Decca tree or OCT or whateverover) the director, you may only need 3 for the drums (good player and tuned, spots on the Bs, pno (forget stereo) and gtr that's 8 or 9. Now what do have left?
If it's more than 6 you win, the rest would be spots for the winds and brass, have the set up the sections so that the soloists are in front of the bkg players, it should mix itself at this point. Too much stereo makes mush, use the pickup over the director to pan and balance your mix using many mono elements. It's easy to hear in the cans when you can listen to a playback! Is this a multitrack recording or live to 2?
have fun, I always do.

[sordeli]

Hi, at this time Im in a Big band proyect, it has piano, ac. bass, el. guitr, drums, 3 tpts, 4 tbns,6 saxes, plus the female vocal,

I did a 2 tracks recording from the rehersal,that was an 5 inputs,then to 2 tracks to Masterlink
this is what I use:

1 DI for keyboard (its gonna be Acoustic Piano for the recordig session with 2 AKG 414)
Ac Bass Langevin CR3A, (the guitar feeds from here too in the rehesall)
the vox came from an amplifier miced from the amp cab( for monitoring the vox)I cudnt find a Y xlr connector to split them,

AND for the brass I used 2 baby Bottles 4.5 meters in front of the brass section,
then to te mixer and then 2 tracks mix to the masterlink.
and this is how it sounds in mp3.

for the final production Im going to use

2 more baby bottle, or AKG 414 at the edge line from the saxes to get the trumpets & tbns, all 4 ch in a ISA 428

for the solos,(some songs has sax solos, tbn solos, & tpt solos) Im going with a Beyerdynamic M-160 to a ch 1 of the Manley Dual Mic Pre
Ac. Bass Langevin CR3a to ch 2 of the manley

for drums maybe another beyer M160 as overhead,(in mono) and for the kick an Equitek 100e, (I have an Audix drum kit DP3, maybe theADX50 can work better,I have to make some tests at isolation background noise) connected to an Amek DMA

for vocal a Blue Berry connected to an ISA 110

4 of the preamps going to feed the 5-8 ch of the ISA428 (piano bass & vox)
to go in PT optical
drums, guitr & solo in analog inputs

Ac.Piano 2 akg 414 (or use the pair of m-160 (I didnt make a final aproach ), any advise?) to an ISA 110 X2

El. Guitr, an audiotecnica 4033 mic´d to guitr cab, then to a Amek 9098 eq



and s Im planning this way, cause I dont have too much inputs, and MONEY as always.
any advise or a better configuration and comments? THANKS
I hope you like this proyect

[NorthCountry]

Folks,

Thanks to all for the really helpful responses. I did a trial run with the band 2 nights ago and I ended up putting the 4006 pair, mounted on the stereo boom, in front, 7 feet up, to pick up the saxes and trombones and a Shure VP-88 on the trumpets. The results were very, very nice.

My only complaint would be that the drummer, who is a VERY heavy hitter, bled pretty badly into the 4006 pair. Naturally I expected some bleeding, but he actually hits much harder than he needs to so for the real gig we're gonna try to knock down his volume, but keep his good timing and intensity (there's a big topic of discussion for another day.)

This was my first post here and y'all really helped me look at this challenge in a fresh way. Thanks again.

[Legacy]

Hi again NorthCountry,

I am also a big DPA fan. You should check out the ball adaptors they have for the 06s. They call them Acoustic Pressure Equalizers (30mm-50mm sizes). Depending on the size they make them more directional in the upper mids-highs. The smaller ones don't change the frequ. response much at all. Very usefull when bleed needs controlling but you don;t want to lose all of the omni character.

Best,
Silas

[sordeli]

Please comments

[NorthCountry]

Hi Silas,

Yes, I have the complete 3530-A kit that includes the Acoustic Pressure Equaliser ball ends. In fact I did use the 40mm APE and it tightened up the sound somewhat, but still had lots of drum bleed. Glad to know we're on the same page, though.

I played the solo'd DPA channels for some folks and they thought just what the stereo pair was picking up was good enough to use just on its own. Of course I'm not going to do that, but those mics sure are sweet. The real recording was on Thursday evening and turned out really well with the same setup I mentioned in my previous post

Thanks again to all for the advice.

[sordeli]

please comments!

[Sound Chaser]

Originally Posted by sordeli

please comments!

Excellent job! Amazing considering what you had to work with. The mp3 sounds a little grainy in a strict "digital" sense as the recording is a little bright for my tastes. (vocals) I would prefer to hear a little more bottom on the drums (kick) to balance this out as there is not a lot of bottom in BB. I assume the actual recording is warmer. Good 'air' on the mix.

[ghellquist]

I think this sounds really nice. Good work in catching that big band.

I will add a few ideas which you might try, or not, it is all about taste.


- I think the piano is a bit too high in the mix. If possible I would turn that down a little. I am not really in love with the piano sound either. Just maybe a bit of "ambiance" or reverb on it will make it sound a little more rounded. I also would have less stereo width on the piano. More like place it where it is in the stereo picture (probably to one side). Now it sounds like it is 10 meters wide.

- I would have the song stronger. After all - vocal is king. I would possible compress the song a little and then have it a little stronger in the mix.

Gunnar

[ajfarber]

Gunnar is right. The piano is too wide.

Listen to classic big band recordings from late 1950s-late60s.
Verve, Capitol, Columbia, Mercury and RCA recordings in particular.

Check out the stereo image. 1 mic on the piano is enough.

If recorded in studio. Set up saxophones on one side of the rhythm section, and brass on the other. When you mix pan saxophones L, brass R bass, drums and guitar(if you've got one) up the middle. don't pan out drums LR or piano. It will sound fake or over the top for jazz.

[sordeli]

Thank you for your comments, I realy apreciate them and Im learning a lot from you guys, you are right in all the details you said before, the thing is that at the mix time I have 2 more opinions(the singer & the BB director, the signer wants everything in your face,so my room mic was gone(just a little to capture an ambience for drums & brass sec.the piano, she wanted paned, and for the kick drum, the drummer came at the mix, and he said was ok, cause thats the way he play´s and the singer too, so there was no producer here to take a correct answer to get there, so , thanks again for your comments, Im going to add another song to hear more from you

[sordeli]

please comments,I think have the same mistakes

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by sordeli

Thank you for your comments, I realy apreciate them and Im learning a lot from you guys, you are right in all the details you said before, the thing is that at the mix time I have 2 more opinions(the singer & the BB director, the signer wants everything in your face,so my room mic was gone(just a little to capture an ambience for drums & brass sec.the piano, she wanted paned, and for the kick drum, the drummer came at the mix, and he said was ok, cause thats the way he play´s and the singer too, so there was no producer here to take a correct answer to get there, so , thanks again for your comments, Im going to add another song to hear more from you

Room mics become a drag when you have a singer going through a PA system.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by sordeli

please comments,I think have the same mistakes

Hey, not bad! A couple things are still a bit strange. The brass and saxophone sections seem to be in full spread, and the rhythm section is basicaly up the middle. Try to pan the instruments as they appeared on stage.

The bass is still a bit up front too.

BTW, you can use altiverb or logic's space designer to replace any ambiance you lost before. Here's a trick: Place a room simulation on intruments in the left channel but ONLY return that ambiance to the right channel. Rinse and repeat.