T-Bone, Trumpet, Sax Mic Recommendations

[Nestor Z.]

Hello members,

I am a freelance trombonist here in Miami, FL...Although I am a newbie to the engineering side of recordings, I have been recording professionally in town for over 10 years now...Mostly salsa, carribean, spanish rock, reageton, latin jazz, pop, etc...

Around here the most popular mics have been the AKG 414/c12, Neuman u87/u67/tlm103, and recently the Royer 121...

The reason for me to invest in a home studio was to have greater flexibilty in being able to record quality projects from home and record my own solo cd...The big picture is to start up my own webpage inorder to market my work around the world...

My set up is simple:

MAC G5 2.0 GHz TIGER 10.4.2
DIGI 002R PT 6.9.2
EVENT ASP8 MONITORS
MILLENIA TD-1 PREAMP
SM 57'S
AKG 414 XLS


Recenty I sold one of my custom trombones and freed up some money ($2200) to be exact...

Ribbon mics have been in my sights lately after reading all of the great reviews that they get...

Also a frind of mine Fransisco Torres (trombonist for Poncho Sanchez) recommended the Coles 4038 because in captures the fattness of the trombone unlike any other mic in his opinion...

I am looking for a smooth, fat, rich, "present" sound when I record...

The AKG 414 is a great mic all around...It just has a hard time handling hard playing and is a tad too bright sometimes...It works great for section playing in pop/ska/ mostly, but for solos or exposed parts it misses that smoothness and warmth that a ribbon is known for...

Please help!!!!

I will be recording trumpet and sax sometimes too...

That said I am open to suggestions...I know that I am pushing toward getting a ribbon, but I have not finalized my decision yet...


Any recommendations based on your proffesional experiences are tremendously appreciated...

Thanks and take care,

Nestor Z.

[jdunn]

Try an AEA R92. I used them on trumpets lately and liked them quite a bit.

The Crowley & Tripp Proscenium would be another option. Great mic, very clear and natural, yet warm and present. This might be the one.

[warhead]

AEA R84, Beyer M160 for a tighter sound.

War

[robmix]

For sections I'll throw up a pair of 414TLII's and then spot mic trumpet with a Royer 121, trombone with a 421, and sax with some kind of large diaphragm condenser like a U67 or lately the BLUE Bottle.

[PlugHead]

IMO, as both low brass player, and from a producer/engineer perspective: Coles 4038 is a really good start. I've yet to find something I prefer over the 4038 for trumpet, bone or tuba. Other ribbon contenders in my exp. have been R-121, R-122, AEA R-84, Beyer M500NC, and their 160, both stock and 77dx modded. I haven't tried the R-92, but might assume it would be a really solid ribbon, can take the SPL's, and is a bit cheaper than some of the others... I've not used the Crowley and Tripp either, but am quite familiar with Coles, all the (mono) Royer mics, and all the Beyers ribbons. The 4038 is my desert island brass mic - all the rest are good, but it has something special. But: beware - they're a bit more sensitive than the other ribbon mics - you might end up needing it re-ribboned, tho the one I've used has never had to be re-done (6+ yrs).

Dynamics (Senn. 441, or even an EV RE-20) can often be the best solution. Great dynamic mics work well on brass, and unless you're willing to spend tons on a U67 or equivalent (which can sound extremely opulent on softer brass playing, IMNTLBHO), you'd be best to have a great dynamic (441/RE-20), and a great ribbon - there are a lot to choose from.

If I were in your shoes, and had the chance, I'd go into a studio equipped with all of these and more, and spend and hr or so with possibly another musician (you're intimate with their sound) can be very educational, and might help you avoid a bad purchase. Barring that - you could rent or buy a few with a guaranteed return policy, and send back the ones that don't cut it. There are a few retailers that are cool with this, and understand that a person needs to try out the merchandise before shelling out...


Best with it,

[swankdoc]

Hmmm.... I keep going back to the AKG D112 for the trombone, RE20 for sax, and 'bout anything for trumpet. If its a muted sound, I like an LDC mine=u99), if its hot and brash, Senn 441.

[Nestor Z.]

Thank you for all of your informative posts...

Originally Posted by PlugHead

IMO, as both low brass player, and from a producer/engineer perspective: Coles 4038 is a really good start. I've yet to find something I prefer over the 4038 for trumpet, bone or tuba. Other ribbon contenders in my exp. have been R-121, R-122, AEA R-84, Beyer M500NC, and their 160, both stock and 77dx modded. I haven't tried the R-92, but might assume it would be a really solid ribbon, can take the SPL's, and is a bit cheaper than some of the others... I've not used the Crowley and Tripp either, but am quite familiar with Coles, all the (mono) Royer mics, and all the Beyers ribbons. The 4038 is my desert island brass mic - all the rest are good, but it has something special. But: beware - they're a bit more sensitive than the other ribbon mics - you might end up needing it re-ribboned, tho the one I've used has never had to be re-done (6+ yrs).

Dynamics (Senn. 441, or even an EV RE-20) can often be the best solution. Great dynamic mics work well on brass, and unless you're willing to spend tons on a U67 or equivalent (which can sound extremely opulent on softer brass playing, IMNTLBHO), you'd be best to have a great dynamic (441/RE-20), and a great ribbon - there are a lot to choose from.

If I were in your shoes, and had the chance, I'd go into a studio equipped with all of these and more, and spend and hr or so with possibly another musician (you're intimate with their sound) can be very educational, and might help you avoid a bad purchase. Barring that - you could rent or buy a few with a guaranteed return policy, and send back the ones that don't cut it. There are a few retailers that are cool with this, and understand that a person needs to try out the merchandise before shelling out...


Best with it,

This is the kind of post that I was looking for...You have a/b several mics that I am interested in...Great stuff!!!

For some "special" reason the Cole 4038 seems to get great comments all around...Therefore I am leaning very much towards that mic for sure...

With a budget of $2200 maybe a great dynamic like the Sennheiser md441u would be the best decision as a second mic?

Or maybe another condenser like the Neumman tlm103?

Or another ribbon like the Royer 121?

What would you guys do, and who would you buy it from???

Thanks in advanced... thumbsup

Take care,

Nestor Z.

[themaidsroom]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

Coles 4038 is a really good start. I've yet to find something I prefer over the 4038 for trumpet, bone or tuba.


Best with it,

i agree

[Bishbashbosh]

4038's are great mics!!!

Just be aware that they'll pick up a bit more room ambience than a dynamic.... so if your room's not that great (or if it's really small with a low ceiling) it might sound too splatty (depends what you like!).... in which case something more focused (like the Beyer ribbons) might be more appropriate.
If you've got a great room then the Coles rock!!

Also... if you're checking out a few ribbons, might be worth checking the 4040 as well as the 4038. The 4040 has a lot of fans out there....

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Nestor Z.

Thank you for all of your informative posts...



This is the kind of post that I was looking for...You have a/b several mics that I am interested in...Great stuff!!!

For some "special" reason the Cole 4038 seems to get great comments all around...Therefore I am leaning very much towards that mic for sure...

With a budget of $2200 maybe a great dynamic like the Sennheiser md441u would be the best decision as a second mic?

Or maybe another condenser like the Neumman tlm103?

Or another ribbon like the Royer 121?

What would you guys do, and who would you buy it from???

Thanks in advanced... thumbsup

Take care,

Nestor Z.

IMO, I'd get the 4038, and either a 441 or an RE-20, tho I think the 441 would be my first choice as i think it could be more useful overall.

Although I LOVE ribbons, I think if you're looking at recording anything else other than brass (vocals, percussion, guitar etc) having a good dynamic mic is better than having more of the same flavour (ribbons, that is) as sometimes ribbon mics lack the 'excitement' we often desire with microphones. Sometimes that '40 lbs around the hips' that ribbons tend to show off isn't suitable in all cases, and with something like a 441, it might be the best choice for a vocalist, for snare drum, hand percussion, etc., etc.

Having a broader bag of tools is appropriate on any occasion, IMNTLBHO...

PS - if you're in the states, I'd go with someone local (you're in FL?) like Atlas Pro Audio, or possibly Mercenary (they ship), but only if they have a return policy - you really should make this a priority when considering a purchase. Being able to return something is essential, and I know Mercenary will do that, but no longer carry Sennheiser (there's a long, political story in there...) so - if the retailer carries both models, and has a return policy, you should be set.

all the best,

[themaidsroom]

call craig calistro

calistromusic.com

(203) 891 - 8918


- jack

[borau]

Another vote for the 4038.

And that coming from a former tromboneplayer....


The 441 is a nice moving coil alternative.

[Nestor Z.]

I am glad that I started this thread because it has definitely made my decision alot easier.

I still wish that I could get more feedback from people with experience using the Coles 4040 in silmilar situations like mine...It is the only unanswered question left for me...Today I sent Coles an email explaining my needs and asked which mic would be best suited...

So far my chioce is Coles 4038 and a Sennheiser 441...These should make my bag of tools broader and more appropriate...

Thank you gentlemen and I will keep you posted on my findings...

When I get in the mics in I will post some tracks by way of mp3 or .wav files so you all could hear the differences...

SM57
AKG 414 XLS
COLES 4038/4040???
SENNHEISER 441

Take care,

Nestor Z.

[James Lehmann]

My friend is a 'bone player (experimental jazz) and he takes his EV-20 everywhere with him, both onstage and in the studio.

[Trp]

I haven´t used the Coles, but I tested the Royer 121/122, RCA 44 and tons of LDC and SDC mics on brass. While the Royers are great for section work IMO I like a bigger sound for solo work. After using various mics by Neumann, Brauner, Horch, Soundelux, DPA, Schoeps I go back to Neumann TLM 170 (nothing like a TLM 103) most of the time.

[timmcallister]

I have both a coles 4038 and a RE-20.

The coles 4038 is absolutely stunning on tenor Sax. My sax player and I just gush over how good this mic sounds. BTW got it from Mecenary.

I've had mixed results for baritone sax, and sometimes choose the re-20 over the coles for bari.

If you need to stay cheap, i think the RE-20 works well, but let me say again, the coles is beautiful on tenor sax...

And just as a side note, I track drums for my bands albums using a single coles as an overhead, and a LD condensor in an adjacent large room (with the doors between the rooms open) for ambience. It takes some time to place the coles to get a good balance, but the results are VERY satisfying (in an old-school sort of way). The Coles is fat, warm, rich and very smooth.

-----------------------
www.PapaSalty.com <--- my band

[homestudioguy]

Have you been to the OTJ Trombone Forum?
http://forum.trombone.org/
I generally read more positive opinions about the Coles 4038 than anything else on that Forum.
I dont have the cash for a ribbon at this time but for fun, I tried a Studio Projects C3 with my horn and it worked surprisingly well.
I have a Bach Stradivarius 42 LTG that is somewhat dark sounding and the C3 brightened it right up. It also handled the SPL's quite well with the pad on.
Bell was at the same height as diaphragm about 24 inches back but pointed down
at about 15 degrees.
Check out the T-Bone Forum for some other opinions but I know you'll "hear" a lot about the 4038.
BG/HSG

[Nestor Z.]

Originally Posted by homestudioguy

Have you been to the OTJ Trombone Forum?
http://forum.trombone.org/
I generally read more positive opinions about the Coles 4038 than anything else on that Forum.
I dont have the cash for a ribbon at this time but for fun, I tried a Studio Projects C3 with my horn and it worked surprisingly well.
I have a Bach Stradivarius 42 LTG that is somewhat dark sounding and the C3 brightened it right up. It also handled the SPL's quite well with the pad on.
Bell was at the same height as diaphragm about 24 inches back but pointed down
at about 15 degrees.
Check out the T-Bone Forum for some other opinions but I know you'll "hear" a lot about the 4038.
BG/HSG

I visit the OTJ, Sam Burtis' Open Horn, and Gearslutz SITE EVERY NIGHT...I am registered as Nestor Z. on all of the sites...

Fun and informative reading...

I finally took the plunge and ordered my Coles 4038 from Craig at Calistro music like you all recommended...He is a stand up guy and I will definately buy from him again...

This mic has by far become my favorite mic...I do not even take out the AKG 414 anymore...It was definately worth the money to get it...

As soon as I get DSL I will post some sounds for you all to listen to...

All the best,

Nestor Z.

BTW, I have a Bach 42 from the late 1960's, a King 3b from 1973, Yamaha 697Z, Yamaha euphonium, and am getting a custom .525/.547 bore slide built for my Bach 42 bell...Sold my Shires .525 bore convertible trombone recently to fund the Coles 4038, Waves Maxx Bundle, and the custom slide...

GEARSLUT I AM ON ALL COUNTS!!!

I love it.