Live Zeppelin is bad...

[BrianK]

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE Led Zeppelin, in incredible detail. But I heard over the last year the months and months Jimmy Page had spent ProTools-ing the tracks to be "better". The exact quote given was "I didn't even know how many mistake John Paul Jones used to make!" (As you probably know, JPJ was the most solid, dependable one...)

So - I heard the CD for the first time last night (have not seen the DVD). The fixing is quite obvious to those who (1) know Led Zeppelein's amazing behind-the-beat slop and (2) know how "computer-fixed" tracks sound. The bandactually sounds like a tight tribute band - some VERY solid on-the-beat playing, but not "Led Zeppelin without a doubt". Even a few amazingly well-pitched vocals here and there; things Plant never did. They left some mistakes in, but it REALLY has little of the great Led Zeppelin feel. The drum solo sounds fairly untouched, and it is awesome at times. Other times, his snare fills in songs sound like machine rolls. Not good. And the material - NOT a very well-done "Dazed and Confused" and "Dancin' Days" is WAY better in the studio. That BBC CD from a few years back was much better at showing the real power of those four guys...

I hate when people do this stuff, fixing and fixing; lack of perfection is sometimes AMAZING, leave it alone!

[Ruphus]

Seems to prove one more time that imperfection is part of the mystic in musics beauty.

Ruphus

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by BrianK
The exact quote given was "I didn't even know how many mistake John Paul Jones used to make!"

he was probably thrown trying to lock into the jitter of their drummer... one of the most over-rated in history, had the timing of a broken wind up clock.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by alphajerk
he was probably thrown trying to lock into the jitter of their drummer... one of the most over-rated in history, had the timing of a broken wind up clock.

I dunno, Alpha - I saw the band in '73 (Tarrant Country Convention Center, Ft. Worth, Texas); there was nothing wring with Bonham's timing or feel then... You also need to remember the times; one of my favorite quotes came from the president of Stax records, talking about Al Jackson Jr.: "He's just like a metronome, the way he speeds up on 'Try A Little Tenderness'."

[alphajerk]

you sure it wasnt the drugs you were on?

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by alphajerk
he was probably thrown trying to lock into the jitter of their drummer... one of the most over-rated in history, had the timing of a broken wind up clock.

wow, Alpha... I couldn't disagree more.

Personal tastes are subjective, but Bonham was massively influential, and considered to be quite a 'groundbreaking' drummer. From about the first song on the first record (Good Times Bad Times), on...

I'd also be willing to wager that most of your own favorite drummers would strongly disagree with you...

To each their own.

[jajjguy]

I once asked a great drummer friend what was so great about Bonham. (Not that I didn't think he was great, just wanted this guy's explanation.) And he said "ever notice how drums before Bonham just sound wimpy?" Too true, too true.

[Jax]

You can't talk Bonham with aj and expect to convince him that he was good. I've tried.

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by alphajerk
he was probably thrown trying to lock into the jitter of their drummer... one of the most over-rated in history, had the timing of a broken wind up clock.

Ok, I'll bite.
when you say timing, can you define what it is you mean? Metronomic? ie: if you we're to solo his tracks to a clik they'd be rushing,dragging....all of the above? did he drag over all from start to finish?

Could it be that single elements are squirrely? Back beats drag....kick pushes... (in relation to the "clik" or reference)

Are you talking about feel? Did his feel suck? did his parts suck for the tunes?

can you point to anyone else in that era that was as influential....that didn't have the "timing of a broken clock"....curious as to who your influences (drummer) are.

Keep in mind, I got puched out in 7th grade for for a remark I made to another drummer friend ....."Bonham sucks" ( I was the little know it all white kid listening to TOP,EWF, cobham, Buddy Rich,Genisis, anything with Gadd,Lenny white...)
It always boils down to personal taste....it took me ten years to really listen and understand Bonham. IMO, he definately was influential , far from perfect, but his feel killed....but let's not forget Ian Paice, Mitch Mitchell......and (bows down) Buddy Miles....

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Jax
You can't talk Bonham with aj and expect to convince him that he was good. I've tried.

And that's another thing that makes music fun - I'm not sure that I could be talked into believing that most of what gets played on country radio is 'country, that most of what's played on pop radio is worth a damn, and most of what's on the Urban Contemporary charts is 'music'.

But this afternoon, I may feel different.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by cajonezzz
....but let's not forget Ian Paice, Mitch Mitchell......and (bows down) Buddy Miles....

I'm right with you on Ian Paice and Buddy Miles, but Mitch Mitchell? I've played with that guy, and couldn't wait for the regular drummer to get back on stage.

I mean that with the greatest respect, of course...

[mdbeh]

As for Bonham... I understand, I wouldn't set my watch by him, but I absolutely love his feel.

It's something that grew on me over time. For a long time, I didn't get why everyone thought he was such a big deal. But now, I like him as much as any other rock drummer I can think of.

[Jax]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
I'm right with you on Ian Paice and Buddy Miles, but Mitch Mitchell? I've played with that guy, and couldn't wait for the regular drummer to get back on stage.

I mean that with the greatest respect, of course...

Whoa... wait a minute! Are we talking Mitch Mitchell, the Hendrix 'Experience' drummer vs the 'Band of Gypsies' drummer, Buddy Miles? I'm hearing and enjoying something totally different from you then, Dave. Maybe his venturing was too hard for you to follow? I don't mean any disrespect. I say that because many bass players prefer the drums simple and locked down, and they feel that drummers like Mitch are overplaying.

Mitch brought jazz feel and chops to the table, and complemented Hendrix's wild forays at every turn. For some folks, although none that I know, this was a turn off. To me, it worked in a similar way to how Elvin Jones and John Coltrane matched up so elegantly and made the music sound more raw than it had with any other group incarnation.

Buddy Miles with Hendrix was usually so straight ahead that it put me to sleep, and his timing wasn't too solid. To top it off, his drum sounds: a tight snare with no resonance and a floppy bass drum and toms, well, they do nothing for me. Mitch managed to hold onto the timing much better despite his psychedelic jazz/rock/funk wandering, and was far more involving to listen to.

You're the first person I've seen take the reverse opinion on Mitch vs Buddy. Interesting.

[Jax]

One more thing about Buddy Miles: IIRC, Hendrix got bored with him and went back to Mitch.

[bassmac]

Have you noticed the more "perfect" that music becomes, the better Bonham sounds?

[Roland]

Bonham's "feel" was great, and if you listen to those old recordings the sound of his drums. That drum sound wasn't obtained by protools or processing or replacing with samples he was truly a great player!

Keith Moon was the same. If you ever watch any footage of him playing it looks terrible, arms flapping all over the place, no technique, but the sound is wonderful!

Regards


Roland

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Jax
Whoa... wait a minute! Are we talking Mitch Mitchell, the Hendrix 'Experience' drummer vs the 'Band of Gypsies' drummer, Buddy Miles? I'm hearing and enjoying something totally different from you then, Dave. Maybe his venturing was too hard for you to follow? I don't mean any disrespect. I say that because many bass players prefer the drums simple and locked down, and they feel that drummers like Mitch are overplaying.

You're the first person I've seen take the reverse opinion on Mitch vs Buddy. Interesting.

We are hearing something different; The night that Mitch sat in, his timing and feel were non-existent (and the regular dummer on that band is wonderful). Buddy's playing drove the band of Gypsies stuff, and my recollection (I admit that I haven't heard that record in more than 15 years, so my memory may be faulty), was that he and Billy Cox were actually playing well together.

But I think that overall, I would definitely rather listen to a groove drummer than a chops drummer. When a drummer with great chops can also groove like a maniac, you get Steve Gadd; without a groove, he's Neil Pert. And a groove without technical chops is still a groove - I miss Al Jackson Jr.

[Jax]

Originally posted by Dave Martin

But I think that overall, I would definitely rather listen to a groove drummer than a chops drummer. When a drummer with great chops can also groove like a maniac, you get Steve Gadd; without a groove, he's Neil Pert. And a groove without technical chops is still a groove - I miss Al Jackson Jr.

I hear ya. To my ears, Mitch was great with both the groove and chops, and Buddy had little chops but could groove ok.

I always wondered how Band of Gypsies would've sounded with Mitch on drums. Hendrix knew what he was doing though - Mitch was more of a pschedelic rock drummer than a soul/funk/rock cat. Experience and B of G's were two different bands.

[sonic dogg]

I just GOTTA dip a toe in here....

I quit college(long long ago) to play in a trio that at the time was the heaviest thing in Oklahoma...dont sound like much does it....but it was...we copped a lot of Led Zeps earliest and John Paul Jones basically taught me to play blues/rock bass...His lines were as influential as Bonhams...As for Bonzo, there wasnt then and there is not now a drummer who could push and pull within the context of 4/4 as he could...Thats what made it so good...Backbeat with a twist...theres one thru four in there but its accents might be somewhere in an upbeat and a half...
GENIUS....

As for Page screwing around with the old stuff to make it presentable...do you think he had to mess with the guitars? My dollar says he tried to line everything else up with the slop that he most likely played.

I saw em in Tulsa in 1971....killed everything breathing that night...NO SLOP on the drums or the bass....I was 20' from JPJ and was never the same after...

Where I grew up, if you were a drummer and could handle Bonzo or Frank Beard you were gonna play a lot and get laid for sure...

I saw Mitch with Jimi and Billy Cox was playing bass....It was much better than Noel Redding(rip)...And I think that Billy's more groove oriented playing actually grounded Mitch somewhat...Mitch always had a tendency to push the envelope as far as busy went...and for all of what some folks would call 'lack of technique', Buddy Miles played very basic very stark drums, mostly because he was the lead vocalist in most things he did...listen to that Band Of Gypsys album and when hes singing its very basic but in the jams and when hes not singing you hear him stretch it out a bit more and get much smoother......Just my basic opinion..........which is always correct.............PEACE

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Jax
I hear ya. To my ears, Mitch was great with both the groove and chops, and Buddy had little chops but could groove ok.

I always wondered how Band of Gypsies would've sounded with Mitch on drums.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Billy played bass at Woodstock along with Mitch on drums. Of course, there was another guitarist and (I think) a percussionist on that gig as well.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by sonic dogg
I just GOTTA dip a toe in here....

I quit college(long long ago) to play in a trio that at the time was the heaviest thing in Oklahoma...

Who was the band and when were they working? I remember seeing an Oklahoma group called "Baby" a few times in the early 70's - KOMA used to play some of their stuff on the radio. The single started with a bass played through the fuzz box built into an Acoustic 360...

[sonic dogg]

There was another guitarist with Jimi at Woodstock and also a percussionist...I dont know if I've ever heard thir names but in the DVD of the film, theres a bit of extra scenes and there are some very clear shots of em playing....

Dave, I remember the band 'Baby'...I listened to KOMA a lot when I lived down in the center(OKC area)...I might be mistaken, but it seems that this was Snuffy Waldens band???? jeezz esh...
the years have gone so quick....Hes doing a BUNCH of TV music now...lots of Emmys and such...
Our band was called a lot of things but it ended being 'Zeke'....we played in late 1970 and early 71 from Normal to OKC....the guitarist was Mark Wood and man was he good...he could cop anybody in about a minute...thus the Zep,Jimi,Beck,Mountain, anything heavy....He had a couple of homebuilt 2-12 cabs and two ancient blackface bassmen, and an L series strat...I played both an EB-2 and a 61 J-bass through a couple of Kustom 200 heads and two cabs w/altecs and JBL's...Battles of the bands were real popular back then, and we were the 'college guys' who played 'really loud and heavy'....
I'm surprised I remember that stuff......

[BrianK]

Interesting how this turns into a (much needed) thread on feel... Has anyone else heard the live Zep CD? (not the DVD - I think it will be more true). I'm just curious if those who "know" can hear the fixing going on. Like when you hear vocals on the radio that are "tuned" and others just think it's "good". The timing was so non-Zep that it was "like seeing your Dad in drag" (One of my favorite quotes!)

FWIW: I had a friend who sampled Bonhams "amazing huge" drums and replaced his own with those samples: the drums actually sounded smaller with Bonhams sounds. It was more in WHERE he placed the beat that made it fat and heavy, As John Paul Jones says - "We played as far behind the beat as we could make it." Interesting to note that they were consciously doing it...

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by sonic dogg


Dave, I remember the band 'Baby'...I listened to KOMA a lot when I lived down in the center(OKC area)...I might be mistaken, but it seems that this was Snuffy Waldens band????

Our band was called a lot of things but it ended being 'Zeke'....

Cool - Baby used to work out in West Texas, so I saw them a few times (Actually, they were first band I heard do Deep Purple's "Highway Star"), but 'Zeke' doesn't ring a bell.

[Kent]

Shit, if a person spends any decent amount of time in Seattle or the NW, then they'll definitely hear of Zeke. They rock pretty hard. Saw 'em at the Crocodile and some other much scuzzier places.

[mdbeh]

Just got the Zeppelin set... there's definitely some Pro Tools-ing going on.

Plant's voice sounds Autotuned in places, and the rhythm section's feel has been "fixed" in a subtle but life-draining way.

Also I think the snare is at least partially replaced on some tracks. I can't be sure, of course, but it has that sort of unnatural consistency that I associate with triggers.

What a disappointment. grudge

[mitgong]

For confirmation: are you aware of any difference in the approach to the mixing of the DVD stuff? I can borrow that from a friend, but I won't if it means even a slight risk of hearing Bonham "fixed".

[archtop]

I don't believe any of the member's of Zeke you've seen at the crocodile were even born in "71,

[Musiclab]

If Page was spending alot of time fixing things he sure could of done a better
job of fixing his guitar playing, it's still really sloppy on the DVD

[Sharp11]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
We are hearing something different; The night that Mitch sat in, his timing and feel were non-existent

I can't think of too many finer recorded rock drumming performances than Mitch Mitchell's on Hendrix's "Cry Of Love".

There's one cut on that record featuring Buddy Miles and as a 13 year old in 1970, even then I was able to tell the difference.

I don't know Mitch's sound in the new millenium, perhaps he's just not into it anymore. That's sad if that's the case.