Live Zeppelin is bad...

[Ruphus]

First of all let me say that I am very much obliged of the dispute culture ( if I can say so in English ) and the constructive approach that many of you are capable of.
This is something I miss very much in our culture which despite of the behavioural insights especially of the past century unfortunately hasn´t soaked too much into our societies.

In a messed up pattern with which most of us grew up in where kids get to hear "Mama does not like you when you do that" instead of "Mama doesn´t like what you are doing" commonly critique can be handled only in a very subjectively smeared way, as it seems to question the value of the concerned person as a whole instead of just the particular case of action which the critique might be aimed to.

Although, I have been so evil to claim that your taste was just adaption to the established galaries ( mass manipulation ) you for the vast part remained thinking and souvereign.

Most people are not capable of such, be they academics or not won´t even matter much.

Like my double-studied sister which spilled fire yesterday when I mentioned only a little, actually easily to be cleared fault. ... And one of the things she has studied besides is pedagogy.

Anyway, it´s a joy talking to you, my friends.

Has any other painting come remotely close to expressing the horror and indignation of such a paradigm shift in human relations?

I couldn´t name them all of the top of my head, but sure have I seen other and in my eyes better works, also about such paradigm shifts. However, whether the artists gained as much tomtom as Picasso did is another question. So, other very impressively made pics dealing about comparable topics havn´t gathered as much publicity, naturally.
Some of them I believe are even only shown on expositions about war / history.

Consider that Picasso needed to just bend a piece of wire to have it exposed in Louvre, so no wonder that his Guernica got more known than all the other works about wars cruelty.

About Dylan, indeed my statement wasn´t accurate. Probably more precise to say that he has no singing voice. ( Although I read repeatedly in the past years that he must have improved. Havn´t heard his later works yet, however. ) The art in his music or also the ones of Leonard Cohen or Petty Smith is more about phrasing, as you mention correctly, Doorknocker.

They manage beautiful results despite their voices, so it is in fact the art of singing and what belongs to it, phrasing and expression.

Yeah, there can be people with marvelous voices, but little creativity and vice versa. And there can be painters with high painting skills and little expression and vice versa.

And I wouldn´t throw away a Picasso ( rather sell it ), but he remains FAR overrated to me.

What definition about art is concerned; I heard the most evident expression from our art teacher in school. He said something like "Art must consist of two components. Proficiency and idea."

The modern arts however for their vast part consists out of merely one of these criteria. Idea. And often not even real ones. Actually the "idea" too often is just reduced on the factor "new". Actually we are talking about something completely else than art. Sensation to the event and hippness to the following public.
All it often brings in is that something is being made "other" then before. To me, as reduced on such, a pretty poor output. Drilling wholes in the ground, greasing bathtubes, painting a house pink, laquering food, throwing paint on canvas won´t bring more to me than the inability or pampered existence of the pushed person in question. And as I said above, as such "art" floods the market it takes chances of talented people to get a foot on the ground.

In the end let me make one thing clear about the topic.

I have mentioned it before. There are cultures like many of the North-American Indian´s where they have no term for art at all. Humans unless handicapped in the corresponding realms are on principle born with talent to singing and artwork.
In cultures like the above mentioned these skills arn´t elevated but practised by everybody. So, in the same time while everybody is practitioner the products aren´t made overpriced trade goods of.

I would very much wellcome it if we came to bring art back from the elitist corner down to general life. Kids would grow up with a natural image about it and unfold their abilities in a relaxed way. ( And you would be seeing much less of both, clumsy output and clumsy trials to establish oneself as an artist.)

Only as long as art remained as a special thing in our cultures and as long as it gets rewarded as a profession I am all for criteria and quality.
Sorry for long post.

Ruphus

[doorknocker]

Ruphus, I appreciate it very much that we can discuss our disgressing points of view here while the flame suits stay in the laundry (the've seen plenty of use here on Gearslutz lately)
My point is that we should distinguish between the work of an artist and its reception by the public. Even Picasso started out as an unknown at some point. I agree that the art world is ridiculous (in fact no matter how much we tend to complain, it's way easier to deal with the music business, no matter how fickle it is, when you consider an artist being dependent on people with money to buy a original work that might exist only once, and having to deal with the posh and self-important 'Vernissage' crowd dfegad

How can art be judged?

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally stated by Kirt Floyd
I have no formal training in art, but one thing I can tell you about it is that art is what touches you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's really what it's all bout, the problems creep in when the artist tries to make a living with his art. I think it's extremely inportant for a society to grant the right for self-expression in all its forms, art and music among them. But who judges what is 'worthy'? Think about it, it's always completely subjective.
I might not care for a lot of stuff that's successful these days but to succeed say in the music business you need 'star quality', whatever that is. That's the way it always was and that's o.k with me.

P.S Both Bob Dylan and Patti Smith are shortly playing in Germany, check it out. Dylan is doing a full-blown rock'n roll show with an incredible band, no acoustic guitar in sight, basically it's a glorified Texas roadhouse band. Tough as hell and honest.
Patti Smith's gig at the Montreux jazz festival 2 years ago was simply one of the best rock gigs I ever saw, you might be surprised how much power the old lady and her boys deliver. In these cynical times with its slacker 'seen-it-all' mentality these were 2 gigs that sort of restored my faith in rock and roll. There are actually people out there still caring for it.

Andi

[Ruphus]

Hi Andi,

To what you just said about art there came a couple of points to my mind, but I thought that we shared our views on principle already, so it could be appearing like just opposing or insisting if I added them. That´s why I won´t.

About concerts, I rarely go to the big events now, for one due to the rediculous prices these days ( not only on concerts, as you know ), secondly for being less in travelling mood than in the past.

Thus I happen to wittness more of the smaller, local gigs. Berlin is great for that. For instance over the past weekend there were a bunch of open air concerts alone in my quarter ( Kreuzberg ). Easy to reach by bicycle.
Yesterday, there were still three concerts only a couple hundred meters away from each other. ( Prolly even more, but I passed by only those three.)
So, li´l me sat in the sun had some beers and enjoyed the performance. One of the gigs besides was remarkable rock, nice despite of the dully PA. Another one was imitating AC/DC style (, but what AC/DC is concerned while I always digged their instrumentals never understood what should be so appealing about soundless screaming ... And not only in a single one, but each and every song again. )

A commercial concert however, which I would had absolutely wanted to visit even if it required to overcome quite some distance would have been the one with Clapton and other giants ( like even J.J.Cale!! ) 2 weeks ago. http://www.crossroadsguitarfestival.org/

Not to sound nostalgic ( or maybe ... YES ;O), but in my experience concerts have been really a very different thing way back, not only because of outstanding music but for the mood which I can´t put into words and I expect that Texas thing to have been very exceptional again for our times. Prolly great audience too.

Really envy the lucky folks who attended.

Thanks for the tip though, didn´t know about Dylan tour and might consider it.

Ruphus

[doorknocker]

Ruphus,

actually I've spent a few days in Berlin last month, nice city!
As far as going to bigger concerts, I also went through a phase of not doing it much (price/hassle,etc as you described) but I must say that seeing Page+ Plant about 5 years ago (actually on my birthday!) in Zürich had a big effect on me. (Finally getting back to the original topic of this thread)
I didn't expect much, they had 'Walking to Clarksdale' out which was...well...o.k and I pretty much expected it to be along the lines of that and the 'half-plugged' 'No quarter' record. More acoustic, they wouldn't go against their own history by doing much Zep stuff, I thought. Little did I know, the gig was killer and I mean killer. Having a drummer (Michael Lee) hold his own on all the Zep classics and by not copying Bonzo seems unbelieveable to me but that's what he did. Plant sang real well as was Page's playing and presence.
Some people that saw Zep play the same venue back in 1980 said it was way better this time. it was the kind of gig that kept you on a natural high for weeks, I'm not exaggerating. Although I always was playing and gigging myself and constantly listening to music, it was a major revelation how powerful rock music can be. The Dylan gig last year was similar in that regard, I saw him back in the 80ies with Mick Taylor on guitar and it was depressing and peinlich. Basically I wrote him off, 1o years later or so he suddendly makes great records again and kicks ass live. Cool!
I agree about the money factor though, having just seen Paul Mc Cartney in top shape with a great band (Abe Laboriel Jr. on drums, holy shit!) doing mostly Beatles material was a great joy. I mean 'Helter Skelter' kicked major butt, but 120 swiss francs (ca. 80 Euro) is a steep price (I was lucky to get a free ticket though thru some radio guys) But anyway, there's nothing that beats a great gig and I'm convinced that we will see more of it in the future again.

Andi

[Ruphus]

Hey,

Isn´t it incredible what the old fellows can still put up?
Sometimes you wittness how they lose track ( think last gigs of Sinatra [ never big fan of him anyway, maybe knew too much about him ], or the last Neil Young albums I bought where so disappointing and even about Page there has been reported to flaw in between on certain gigs ). Or the Stones ... respectively already 15 years ago when it was announced some Jagger solo album I seriously doubted, until I heard it and it was so great again [ even on that Billy Withered song / hope I wrote the name correctly ] still so good on their later records.

When McCartney started his last tour I think 2 years ago or so I read a review where the journalist said Paul had performed better than in the past. Hard to believe, but all in all the old guys just destroy the stereotypes about aging.

Seems indeed all depending on the spirit, not so much the body.thumbsup

Best,

Ruphus

[ozraves]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
I'm right with you on Ian Paice and Buddy Miles, but Mitch Mitchell? I've played with that guy, and couldn't wait for the regular drummer to get back on stage.

I mean that with the greatest respect, of course...

I've not played with Mitch Mitchell but I know exactly what you're talking about.

[ozraves]

Originally posted by Ruphus
Hey,

Isn´t it incredible what the old fellows can still put up?
Sometimes you wittness how they lose track ( think last gigs of Sinatra [ never big fan of him anyway, maybe knew too much about him ], or the last Neil Young albums I bought where so disappointing <snip>

I saw NY & Crazy Horse last August. Best show I've seen in a very long time.

[ozraves]

Led Zep was all about feel. It's about that intro to "Rock 'n' Roll."

For better or worse, Jimmy Page has always found himself in this game of pitting himself and Plant against Bonham and especially up against John Paul Jones. He must have historically large self esteem problems that require propping up a humongous ego. I've always found the rhythm section in Led Zep to be the most interesting thing about the band.

[triez]

Have you noticed the more "perfect" that music becomes, the better Bonham sounds?



bassmac - Beautifully said.

[jangus]

Alright. I registered here because I found this thread on google and will probably never post here again. As a drummer, John Bonham was amazing. By watching his Moby Dick solo on the DVD you could tell he was influenced a whole lot by Buddy Rich and Joe Morello. He and JPJ were the two members with the most musical knowledge.

As for the bad time, I'm guess its because of his bass drum pedal. He had a lot of resistance on it so he could get a super big kick. I believe Keith Moon or Charlie Watts once said it was too hard for them to use, I cant remember which, its in the back of my brain somewhere.

John Bonham will never be over-rated, it takes a drummer to see his skill with his lightning fast paradiddles and doubles... I get jealous just thinking of it. Man.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

I'm right with you on Ian Paice and Buddy Miles, but Mitch Mitchell? I've played with that guy, and couldn't wait for the regular drummer to get back on stage.

I mean that with the greatest respect, of course...

I saw Ian Paice play a couple of times, and he was pretty great; especially nice with Roger Glover.

I've never been a big Bonham fan; but I do appreciate his playing. I think he had a 'flavor' that's been really influential.

Charlie Watts was always more my cuppa....

[jbuntz]

Originally Posted by Roland

Bonham's "feel" was great, and if you listen to those old recordings the sound of his drums. That drum sound wasn't obtained by protools or processing or replacing with samples he was truly a great player!

Keith Moon was the same. If you ever watch any footage of him playing it looks terrible, arms flapping all over the place, no technique, but the sound is wonderful!

Regards


Roland

I kinda always though the opposite. He's fun to watch because he was a madman...uhhmmm litterally I might add. He overplayed like a motherfukker though. The Who songs had no groove.

[jerdude]

sorry i haven't read all the posts in this thread... so if i am outa line then just wack me.

but i can't think about GROOVE MANIACS without mentioning Jeff Porcaro... maybe THE best groove drummer of all frickin time!!

he just grooved man.... it makes my insides hurt when i hear his grooves.

damn.... groove man!

[Ted Nightshade]

Mitch Mitchell was the closest human being to Jimi Hendrix, musically speaking. Those two were crazy, psychically tight. That's worth a whole hell of a lot. My favorite Jimi group remains Jimi, Mitch, and Billy Cox. They just have the sweetest loveliest vibe together on Rainbow Bridge, don't you think?

Mitch burnt his brain out on meth. Does very bad things to the nervous system and hence to rhythm. Too damn bad. He was probably useless for anything but playing behind Jimi at that time. He was perfect for that job, as perfect as anybody around could be for it- he went the whole trip without reservation and paid the price. Watch those guys play together- damn they're tight! With each other- not with some metronome concept.

Page- he remains an alltime great guitar composer and arranger. Part of the all time great Led Zeppelin rhythm section. What happened to him? Deal with the devil? Seems like just dope couldn't do such a thorough job of extinguishing the once-bright flame. The man had a VISION. And how. No sign of that anymore.

Great performer too, born showman. Messy guitarist. Elegant guitar composer.

[alphajerk]

i preferred noel on bass. the tension between jimi and him was incredible. it was 3 effin NUTS all going together. plus noel played much cooler basslines... and played the bass like a guitarist, which worked in this situation.

[Ted Nightshade]

I liked Noel too. Ever hear the Red House where Jimi and Noel switched? Noel did a mean Hendrix blues impersonation! but Noel kind of crabbed up or something, things got pretty chilly and that tension got bolloxed...

If you haven't checked out the whole Band of Gypsys set, both nights, you should! It's so clear that Billy is just a sponge for Jimi's ideas... amazing to hear Jimi well-rested and lucid. That's magic.

[Frequency]

Stewart Copeland is the greatest of all drummers.

End of discussion.

:-)