The ultimate *affordable* omni's for main miking large orchestras

[kkramer]

I am looking for a (very) affordably priced microphone to be used in a main AB microphone setup for a big orchestra + choir in a big concert hall.

The ones I see (on thomann )

I was surprised to see Oktava 012's on thomann for such a good price! Right now a pair with all three capsules is running 419 euros or US $530 compared to $700 anywhere in US. The exchange rate is pretty good now, with international shipping comes out to $570 and 3 year warranty :O i'm no thomann rep... just love a good deal!

-Kyle
MBP
Logic
Firewire 410
yamaha HS50

[Matti]

Oktava -- Shop
is the usual place to buy Oktavas but Thomann seems to beat them for now for limited supplement

Matti

[NorseHorse]

This video uses KSM141s in AB, plus a hint of Rode NT-45.



Beautiful piece. Worth listening to.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

This video uses KSM141s in AB, plus a hint of Rode NT-45.


Beautiful piece. Worth listening to.

Your gig or do you know the engineer? I ask because you know the mics used. Any other info?

This piece is very beautiful and an old favorite of mine. My reference performance is the Philadelphia SO under Ormandy doing this with those ever-so-silky strings he had. UNC does it quite well, also. Thanks for the post.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

This video uses KSM141s in AB, plus a hint of Rode NT-45.



Beautiful piece. Worth listening to.

Good sound and balance - let's know, if possible, more about the setup [it's not easy to see on the video]. Was all four in omni and are they together on the tall stand..?

::
Mads

[klaukholm]

Neumann km130 are excellent for mains and do not break the bank.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by mljung

more about the setup [it's not easy to see on the video]. Was all four in omni and are they together on the tall stand..?

Yes, I would like to know more, as well.

[anrug]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Neumann km130 are excellent for mains and do not break the bank.

I wonder, Neumann hasn't been mentioned earlier in this thread.

If you are looking for a pair of general purpose, versatile omnis for classical music, the KM183 will be a very good choice (and they are surprisingly cheap too). Although I generally prefer the "industry standard" in classical music, dpa4006, in halls with a not perfect accoustic the Neumann's will even beat the dpa's, because the latter are not very forgiving I feel.

Of course there are also many other choices, especially if you don't have to work in many different halls. I have to admit, that I have only a few times tried these mics in a setup with no spot mics, or very few spots (as you are planning to do).

[Masaaki]

We used Neumann KM183 pair in NOS stereo to record our kids concert. If KM183 is still "affordable" range, then this might give you some idea. Preamps were Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56. The first one is the opening piece, and some kids were nervous around 0:30, so please be forgiving about the performace (most of them are <13yr old). Please just listen the sound.

[Surbitone]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Neumann km130 are excellent for mains and do not break the bank.

OT completely, but I love your dog - he's awesome.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

We used Neumann KM183 pair in NOS stereo to record our kids concert. If KM183 is still "affordable" range, then this might give you some idea. Preamps were Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56. The first one is the opening piece, and some kids were nervous around 0:30, so please be forgiving about the performace (most of them are <13yr old). Please just listen the sound.

Well, despite the other thread about the death of classical music, it seems alive and well in the Beehive State. It is literally thrilling to see youngsters with that much talent assembled on a stage making music.

One question, there are two pair of mics up there. You ran the KM183 in NOS but what were the others? Just curious. Someone had to ask and it might as well be me.

[Masaaki]

Originally Posted by boojum

Well, despite the other thread about the death of classical music, it seems alive and well in the Beehive State. It is literally thrilling to see youngsters with that much talent assembled on a stage making music.

One question, there are two pair of mics up there. You ran the KM183 in NOS but what were the others? Just curious. Someone had to ask and it might as well be me.

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, classic is not dead! (At least here)

Another pair was actually Schoeps CMC6 with MK2 caps, in semi-ORTF (longer than 17cm, but the angle was 110deg). We liked the sound from Schoeps of course, but for the Youtube, we patched the signals from KM183 to the Sony HD camera, which had XLR inputs. We talked about replacing the sound track of the AVCHD file with the Shoeps feed, but the software didn't work very well.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, classic is not dead! (At least here)

Another pair was actually Schoeps CMC6 with MK2 caps, in semi-ORTF (longer than 17cm, but the angle was 110deg). We liked the sound from Schoeps of course, but for the Youtube, we patched the signals from KM183 to the Sony HD camera, which had XLR inputs. We talked about replacing the sound track of the AVCHD file with the Shoeps feed, but the software didn't work very well.

Sounds fine - but just out of curiosity may I ask why you use NOS and ORTF developed for cardioid microphones, for omnis?

If you have the sound of the Shoeps MK-2 - it could interesting to compare the two!?

::
Mads

[Masaaki]

Originally Posted by mljung

Sounds fine - but just out of curiosity may I ask why you use NOS and ORTF developed for cardioid microphones, for omnis?

If you have the sound of the Shoeps MK-2 - it could interesting to compare the two!?

::
Mads

There were several simply physical limitations there. Gears we had in the PA room of this hall were not as extensive as recording studios, so we (3 crews) had to improvise with what we had. The hall actually has a mic bar hung by wire from above, and there was a XY pair going to their recording system. The hall allowed us to use their Shoeps, but we also brought in our KM183s (with some other cardioids like MC930), and wanted to feed the camcorder. We ended up using the tall mic stand (Shure) and found the semi-ORTF and NOS pairs were as close as we can get. We thought the stereo images of these recordings will come up somewhat odd, but we preferred using omnis for the natural sounding character. Yes, sorry for this kind of amateurish reasons (crews were actually not pro, except for a guy from the hall), but in the end, it didn't sound bad. If I have wav files of Shoeps, I can upload later. Thanks for checking the video anyway!

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by boojum

Your gig or do you know the engineer?

I took care of the audio and video for the concert.

Originally Posted by mljung

Good sound and balance - let's know, if possible, more about the setup...
Mads

Thanks for the compliments. The KSM141s were on the stand in a ~NOS arrangement (maybe 32cm?). Rode NT5s with NT45-omni capsules were flankers on the lip of the stage circa the 2nd/3rd rows. I believe I had AT4050s on the flute and oboe, used only when needed and only as little as needed. I added a 1db high-shelf to the mix at 10kHz.

Inspired by the Toronto Symphony (eng. Marc Aubort - four omnis) and Tony Faulkner (cards + omnis), I have tried the four-mics on a stand on orchestra before (different space) and on a wind band (same space), but I was not sold on the results.

Since very few omnis are truly omni, angling the mics away from each other can add directional cues. The 141s are pretty directional by 6.5kHz and up.

Originally Posted by Masaaki

The first one is the opening piece, and some kids were nervous around 0:30, so please be forgiving about the performace (most of them are <13yr old). Please just listen the sound.

Very cool group.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The KSM141s were on the stand in a ~NOS arrangement (maybe 32cm?). Rode NT5s with NT45-omni capsules were flankers on the lip of the stage circa the 2nd/3rd rows.

Did you fly the flanks? I can't see them at all in the video...

[NorseHorse]

Nope, they were on the lip of the stage, pointing upstage.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by Surbitone

OT completely, but I love your dog - he's awesome.

Its a she, and she is the best dog ever!
Dobermans are very special dogs!
They are also HIGH MAINTENANCE!
In this picture she has been digging in a sandbox and has a very sandy nose.
we can carry on this discussion in the remote pets thread before Steve kicks our butts

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

This video uses KSM141s in AB, plus a hint of Rode NT-45.



Beautiful piece. Worth listening to.

You use your KSM141 mics a lot - do you rate them as highly as the high end stuff?

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by richgilb

You use your KSM141 mics a lot - do you rate them as highly as the high end stuff?

They sound pretty good here, don't they.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Brackish

They sound pretty good here, don't they.

Are you able to judge about the performance of a mic from a single track without any comparison with the thruth or with another track from the same source and another microphone ? I cannot.

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Are you able to judge about the performance of a mic from a single track without any comparison with the thruth or with another track from the same source and another microphone ? I cannot.

Probably not. But this was not the point I started. I was asking for his opinion. The work he uploads always seems good. Subtle differences between clips will certainly get lost but this chap seems to do quite big events, they always sound good on the clips and I don't recall him ever using super-expensive mics. Is he a voice of reason in terms of microphone obsessive-compulsive-got-to-have-the-most-expensive-or-it's-going-to-sound-shit sluttishness? These mics can go for very little money used and he seems to turn up to quite prestigious events with them. Cool.

[didier.brest]

On a good source in a good hall, any mic can sound good. Check this for another very good recording made with a pair of KSM 141.

But what do you think about the same mic in this test ?

[NorseHorse]

Maybe they only sound good in North Carolina...

But seriously, speaking from personal experience, expensive mics don't equal good recordings.

[chris319]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

expensive mics don't equal good recordings.

HERETIC! You are hereby banned from the Schoeps Schnob Schociety.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

But seriously, speaking from personal experience, expensive mics don't equal good recordings.

Very true, but all other things being equal they will carry the day. I think Steve Remote, and others, have said that proper placement is more important and that is true.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by omegaomega

What about the AKG 480b with the cardiod CK61 or omni CK62 caps?
Are these mics in the same class like, say, the Beyer MC930?
I can't find much info about them here, but they seem they are designed to compete in the same league and apparently made for use in orchestra, choir etc. Someone commented that they sound very close to the 4011s.
Anyone using them for that?

I checked those out, a nice design ruined by the use of low quality surface mount passives.

I have 6 AKG 460B's here, all modified transformer-less. Many also use those for orchestral recordings. The CK-62 omni's are great as is the CK-62 DF, diffused field capsule.

Jack Vad raves about the Milab VIP-50 mics I rebuilt for the San Francisco Symphony. The self noise was lowered several db's and the off-axis response is first rate. The total lack of body resonance due to the aluminum plate construction is another selling point. Tap on any mic body, what do you hear?
You hear nothing with the VIP-50.