Remote 5.1 Recording in Tropical Rain-Forests

[Avening]

Hey guys,

First time posting in this section of the forum (hello to all), and could really use your input.

My wife, being an Ecologist, does research in remote places all over the world. She recently has taken on a new project collecting field data (tropical endophytes), which means she will be traveling to Costa-Rica, Papua New Guinea, and Borneo (South of Indonesia) over the next few years. I have been given the opportunity to take part in some of these excursions, and being an audio engineer, will not be passing up the opportunity to take some of these amazing sound-scapes home with me. Here en lies the task at hand.

I'm looking to capture sound-scapes in 5.1 surround in the middle of a jungle, literally hundreds of miles from anything you and I would call "civilized". This presents many obvious obstacles. The task is to get gear that will be durable enough for the task, but run with the obvious limitations that a truly portable rig would provide.

In terms of the gear, I'm not going to have access to power while on site. This rig will have to be battery operated (Firewire, ect...) and have at least 5 channels of high quality conversion and preamps (pref at 96K+). My home system is an HD2 with outboard, so being able to integrate with that would be very handy come mix time. Looking for advice for a durable, high quality system.

Microphone wise, would love to hear your input. During a few Orchestral sessions I did over at the Glen Gould studio at CBC, Toronto, I had the opportunity to work with a few pairs of Bruel & Kjaer 4011 microphones, and I believe these would be excellent for this application in a 5 channel surround setup. But as far as reference type microphones are concerned, this is where my experience stops. Are there 5.1 surround mics these days? I have no idea.

Lastly, would love to hear your input for an approach to this situation. The final idea is to record these extremely rare sound-scapes in the best quality possible, lightly edited and prepared for the post world by means of 5 channel surround sample libraries for motion picture.

In addition, if any of you have links to reference articles on capturing sound for 5.1 surround, would love to do some reading.

Sorry for the novel! Thanks kindly.

[John Willett]

You can do this with only 3 mics in a single basket windshield.

You need an MKH 30 and an MKH 8040 stereoset - record the three channels and matrix to 5.1 in software (Schoeps do a plug-in for this).

This is MSM (or double-MS) format.

You can fit the lot into a Rycote stereo windshield.

I would get a short remote cable for the upper 8040 as it will be facing backwards.

My old friend Terry Meadowcroft has been doing this for ages (though his rig was made up from the old MKH series) and recording 5.1 in the jungle - it works very well and is very easy to handle.

Do you have access to power at night?

I would do this with a Nagra VI which gives 12-15 hours recording time on the heavy-duty battery option.

[Avening]

Originally Posted by John Willett

You can do this with only 3 mics in a single basket windshield.

You need an MKH 30 and an MKH 8040 stereoset - record the three channels and matrix to 5.1 in software (Schoeps do a plug-in for this).

This is MSM (or double-MS) format.

You can fit the lot into a Rycote stereo windshield.

I would get a short remote cable for the upper 8040 as it will be facing backwards.

My old friend Terry Meadowcroft has been doing this for ages (though his rig was made up from the old MKH series) and recording 5.1 in the jungle - it works very well and is very easy to handle.

Do you have access to power at night?

I would do this with a Nagra VI which gives 12-15 hours recording time on the heavy-duty battery option.

John,

Thanks for the reply. Great info.

Yes, power is available at night time.

In terms of the mic technique, could you please explain a little further? I'm familiar with MS, but MSM I'm not too sure. I understand there would be a figure of 8 channel (MKH30) which is split by phase reversing the 2 sides FO8, but you had mentioned a stereo set of 8K Sennheisers that would all be broken down to 3 channels, then matrixed in a plugin to 5.1. As you can see, I'm probably over-analyzing this.

As far as the Nagra is concerned, that is one hefty piece of gear and industry standard for a reason. Price wise, it doesn't work, but who knows what i could find used if push came to shove. As an alternative, is there any laptop based systems I could use in place? USB 2.0 or FW800 based and powered preamp/converter combos would be ideal transportation and flexibility wise, although providing a true +48v to the mics is important. Just weighing options at this point, no disrespect intended with your suggestion.

I'd also like to ask you if you've heard of the DPA 5100? This seems like it would be a great portable mic rig that would stand up to just about anything weather wise. Plus, DPA mics are absolutely stunning at what they do. Thoughts?

Keep the ideas coming!

[postprosound]

This sounds like a great expedition. I'd kill to have a chance like that, or at this moment any chance to get out of the cold of NYC.

Being a Post guy myself, i might have some insight. I'm sure that i am saying something that you probably know, but it deserves some reiterating. The first and foremost thing to remember, is that a sound editor would 10000 times rather have a good stereo or even mono track than a mediocre surround track. (One oscar winning sound supervisor even prefers stereo....) Like i said, i'm sure you know this, and will take this into account as you go about your recording.

I have heard very good things about the Holophone microphone, and i believe that it was used in the movie Australia to record the sound of a stampede of wild horses. because of it's small size, for 5 mics, it might work for you. Many speak highly of the DPA mics as well, (am i mistaken to believe that the b&K that you mentioned is somehow a dpa?).
Though, if i were in your position, and wanted 5 desecrate channels, i'd definitely lean toward the Senn mkh's. Say what you will about their sound, they are well known for taking the humidity/abuse that the tropics dole out. Frankly, you could have the best sounding mic in the world, but if it poops out on you in the field, it might as well say fisher price on it. As a suggestion, pack desiccant pacts with your gear to help with humidity. and make sure you get really good wind protection. Rycote is the standard, but many like the new Rode model both for price and features.

As far as recorders, besides the Nagra's, definitely look at what Sound Devices has to offer. Small, simple, elegant, quiet pre's, and tough as nails. They are a standard for us sound folks. The 788t offers 8 channels, which means you can record your 5 or 6 surround channels, plus a second stereo mic (like a Crown SASS, a favorite for many sound guys) all at the same time. It also is pretty easy on power, and uses sony camcorder batteries.

Let me say this as far as M/S stuff goes. Though it is really cool, and sounds great, there is a lot of controversy in the post field about it. Many feel that when decoded, because of it's being based on phasing, it will cause many problems with Dolby Pro Logic surround matrixing. Like i say, it's somewhat debated, but some might shy away from your recordings if you mention anything involving M/S. I am sure not here to make a point for or against it, but rather just want to make you aware of the hub-bub surrounding it.

So i guess, Keep your setup simple, durable, clean sounding, try to stay away from mics that color the sound, (the editors prefer to color it in post), keep things as dynamic as possible, and make sure to pack extra batteries....

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Avening

John,

Thanks for the reply. Great info.

Yes, power is available at night time.

In terms of the mic technique, could you please explain a little further? I'm familiar with MS, but MSM I'm not too sure. I understand there would be a figure of 8 channel (MKH30) which is split by phase reversing the 2 sides FO8, but you had mentioned a stereo set of 8K Sennheisers that would all be broken down to 3 channels, then matrixed in a plugin to 5.1. As you can see, I'm probably over-analyzing this.

As far as the Nagra is concerned, that is one hefty piece of gear and industry standard for a reason. Price wise, it doesn't work, but who knows what i could find used if push came to shove. As an alternative, is there any laptop based systems I could use in place? USB 2.0 or FW800 based and powered preamp/converter combos would be ideal transportation and flexibility wise, although providing a true +48v to the mics is important. Just weighing options at this point, no disrespect intended with your suggestion.

I'd also like to ask you if you've heard of the DPA 5100? This seems like it would be a great portable mic rig that would stand up to just about anything weather wise. Plus, DPA mics are absolutely stunning at what they do. Thoughts?

MSM is a front and rear facing cardioid plus a fig.8.

Cardioid = front
MS with front cardioid = left and right
MS with rear cardioid = rear left and right

All simple and portable.

Yes the DPA is a very nice little 5.1 rig - but electret mics and I would not like to use such a rig in the damp of a rain forest.

The MKH are RF condensers and are pretty immune to working in the damp.

The Nagra is the ideal - or the Sound Devices 788T - you could use the 744T, but, as far as I am aware, it only has two mic. pre-amps.

The Edirol R-44 would be a cheaper alternative.

I would certainly *not* want to cart a laptop around for recording.

Myself - I record on a Nagra VI and only use the PC for editing - I would never trust a computer for live recording.


RF mics - the following is an explanation of why I recommend using MKH microphones:-

Question:
Can anybody give me a quick explanation of why RF modulated microphones are less
susceptible to humidity problems than are AF microphones?

Answer:
Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge. With
one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance
varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly. This is measured by the
head preamplifier and an audio signal results. All well and good, but the capsule is
inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaW) – it has to sit there with stored charge
until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio. In a
humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air
rather than through the input of the preamplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and
misery all round. The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm,
reducing its efficiency and linearity.

The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low
impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator
– which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is
being passed through the capacitor all the time. Changes in capacitance (caused by sound
moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its
frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal. A simple RF demodulator restores the
output to a conventional audio signal. More complex and sophisticated (but still very
rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred
design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).

[Avening]

Originally Posted by postprosound

This sounds like a great expedition. I'd kill to have a chance like that, or at this moment any chance to get out of the cold of NYC.

Being a Post guy myself, i might have some insight. I'm sure that i am saying something that you probably know, but it deserves some reiterating. The first and foremost thing to remember, is that a sound editor would 10000 times rather have a good stereo or even mono track than a mediocre surround track. (One oscar winning sound supervisor even prefers stereo....) Like i said, i'm sure you know this, and will take this into account as you go about your recording.

I have heard very good things about the Holophone microphone, and i believe that it was used in the movie Australia to record the sound of a stampede of wild horses. because of it's small size, for 5 mics, it might work for you. Many speak highly of the DPA mics as well, (am i mistaken to believe that the b&K that you mentioned is somehow a dpa?).
Though, if i were in your position, and wanted 5 desecrate channels, i'd definitely lean toward the Senn mkh's. Say what you will about their sound, they are well known for taking the humidity/abuse that the tropics dole out. Frankly, you could have the best sounding mic in the world, but if it poops out on you in the field, it might as well say fisher price on it. As a suggestion, pack desiccant pacts with your gear to help with humidity. and make sure you get really good wind protection. Rycote is the standard, but many like the new Rode model both for price and features.

As far as recorders, besides the Nagra's, definitely look at what Sound Devices has to offer. Small, simple, elegant, quiet pre's, and tough as nails. They are a standard for us sound folks. The 788t offers 8 channels, which means you can record your 5 or 6 surround channels, plus a second stereo mic (like a Crown SASS, a favorite for many sound guys) all at the same time. It also is pretty easy on power, and uses sony camcorder batteries.

Let me say this as far as M/S stuff goes. Though it is really cool, and sounds great, there is a lot of controversy in the post field about it. Many feel that when decoded, because of it's being based on phasing, it will cause many problems with Dolby Pro Logic surround matrixing. Like i say, it's somewhat debated, but some might shy away from your recordings if you mention anything involving M/S. I am sure not here to make a point for or against it, but rather just want to make you aware of the hub-bub surrounding it.

So i guess, Keep your setup simple, durable, clean sounding, try to stay away from mics that color the sound, (the editors prefer to color it in post), keep things as dynamic as possible, and make sure to pack extra batteries....

Excellent information there, thank you.

I agree a stellar stereo track would be of more benefit (I have done some post work as well for a few TV shows, but that's the extent of my experience) than a poorly done surround. That's why it's always in my best interest to do the research before I start. Surround recording is something I've always wanted to get in to, and I figured getting my hands dirty and diving in is the only way to get started. I'll just so happen to have a pretty cool starting point in my eyes.

I have read up on the Holophone, and it seems to be in the same realm as the DPA 5100. 5 fully independent channels, with an additional LFE (.1) channel. Seems either would do the job correctly, and in great quality. Although John has brought up a good point about electret mics and moisture. I know the DPA has created a custom outdoor cover, but it would be a quick phone call to DPA regarding it's specific application. By the way, I do believe B&K is now DPA. The 4011 mics I've used in the past have all been B&K, but looking at the DPA's, they are the same mic. Who knew!?

Regarding the MKH microphones, I have been a long time user, and firmly stand behind those mics. I personally own a pair of MKH40, and have used them on everything from violin to right in front of a kick drum. Next to the e914's I have, they're my favorite SDCs. Using them as my additional stereo track would be perfect for this application.

As far as my recording device goes, I'll still have to look around and see what my options are. Price is a concern, but if the benefits outweigh the price, sacrifices will have to be made. Maybe I'll have to unload a few outboard toys to make things happen, who knows.

Thanks again for your input!

Originally Posted by John Willett

MSM is a front and rear facing cardioid plus a fig.8.

Cardioid = front
MS with front cardioid = left and right
MS with rear cardioid = rear left and right

All simple and portable.

Yes the DPA is a very nice little 5.1 rig - but electret mics and I would not like to use such a rig in the damp of a rain forest.

The MKH are RF condensers and are pretty immune to working in the damp.

The Nagra is the ideal - or the Sound Devices 788T - you could use the 744T, but, as far as I am aware, it only has two mic. pre-amps.

The Edirol R-44 would be a cheaper alternative.

I would certainly *not* want to cart a laptop around for recording.

Myself - I record on a Nagra VI and only use the PC for editing - I would never trust a computer for live recording.


RF mics - the following is an explanation of why I recommend using MKH microphones:-

Question:
Can anybody give me a quick explanation of why RF modulated microphones are less
susceptible to humidity problems than are AF microphones?

Answer:
Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge. With
one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance
varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly. This is measured by the
head preamplifier and an audio signal results. All well and good, but the capsule is
inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaW) – it has to sit there with stored charge
until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio. In a
humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air
rather than through the input of the preamplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and
misery all round. The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm,
reducing its efficiency and linearity.

The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low
impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator
– which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is
being passed through the capacitor all the time. Changes in capacitance (caused by sound
moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its
frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal. A simple RF demodulator restores the
output to a conventional audio signal. More complex and sophisticated (but still very
rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred
design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).

Thanks, John, for the additional info and explaining the MSM technique

I think the MKH mics of mine are going to get some work! I have great connections with Sennheiser, so I will look into a few of your suggestions.

Regarding the portable recorder, thanks for the recommendations. Seems I wasn't thinking reasonably about the potential cost of one, although the the thought of renting for a few weeks doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. As i said above, I don't want to run in to the situation where I'm sacrificing quality to save money.

Much more research to do, and i thank you both for your time!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Avening

Regarding the MKH microphones, I have been a long time user, and firmly stand behind those mics. I personally own a pair of MKH40, and have used them on everything from violin to right in front of a kick drum. Next to the e914's I have, they're my favorite SDCs. Using them as my additional stereo track would be perfect for this application.

If you already have a pair of MKH 40 you would just have to add the MKH 30 for MSM.

But you would need a long windshield because of the rear facing one (unless you used an MKH 8040 with remote cable to keep it small.

[Denis Goekdag]

The Sennheiser stuff really performs very nicely in humid conditions. I had 8040/800 with me in the desert recently, condensing humidity at dawn ---- no issues whatsoever. And the sound quality is stellar.

On a side-note: John, how exactly would one go about fitting an 8040/800 MSM setup in a stereo Rycote? I was planning on doing that but didn't really find a means of attaching the back-facing 8040 in a sensible manner.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

On a side-note: John, how exactly would one go about fitting an 8040/800 MSM setup in a stereo Rycote? I was planning on doing that but didn't really find a means of attaching the back-facing 8040 in a sensible manner.

I presume it's an MKH 800 and not a new 800 TWIN and that you are using the 800 as the fig.8?

You would have to discuss thios with Rycote direct to make up a special mount.

But I would envisage a complete MKH 8040 at the bottom (possibly with an XLR extender to make it longer) and the MKH 800 (or MKH 30) mounted above in correct alignment.

Then use the second MKH 8040 in remote mode above the MKH 800 pointing towards the rear.

If you send me a PM with an e-mail address I can ask Terry Meadowscoft to send you a picture of his MSM rig (done with older mics) as he has been doing this for years in the jungle making programs for British TV (not sure if it was BBC or ITV, may have been both).

I hope this helps.

[huub]

I do not know what capsules are used in the dpa surround mic, but the capsules in 4060 and similar mics are very very capable of functioning in even the dampest of circumstances...

[muziekschuur]

The new Tascam solidstate recorder is another alternative.

I do not know it's price at the moment.

I think this recorder and a Decca Tree made with three DPA 4090 microphones will be a nice way to record your surrounding.

The bigger brother for 8 channels might be even more appealing;

And some DECCA TREE stands;

Modular Microphone Array Positioners – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ Mic Preamps and Recording Tools

[Denis Goekdag]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I presume it's an MKH 800 and not a new 800 TWIN and that you are using the 800 as the fig.8?

Yes, exactly.

Originally Posted by John Willett

You would have to discuss thios with Rycote direct to make up a special mount.

Probably the best idea indeed. I'll be on the phone to them.

Originally Posted by John Willett

But I would envisage a complete MKH 8040 at the bottom (possibly with an XLR extender to make it longer) and the MKH 800 (or MKH 30) mounted above in correct alignment.

Yes, that part works fine, using double-clips that come with the hoop-based stereo Rycote. That is the easy part.

Originally Posted by John Willett

Then use the second MKH 8040 in remote mode above the MKH 800 pointing towards the rear.

This is the tricky part as you can't attach it to the MKH 800....the rear-facing MKH 8040 would need to be held in a spot where the 800 has already ended ;-)

Originally Posted by John Willett

If you send me a PM with an e-mail address I can ask Terry Meadowscoft to send you a picture of his MSM rig (done with older mics) as he has been doing this for years in the jungle making programs for British TV (not sure if it was BBC or ITV, may have been both).

I hope this helps.

That would be very kind of you -- PM incoming.

Thank you, John.

[David Rick]

On the MSM side, another worthwhile combo would be MKH 800 Twin for front/rear and a MKH 8030 (or either MKH 800) for side duty. That gets the job done with only two mic bodies, though you will end up mounting them vertically.

Given the challenging logistics, simpler is better. I'd still look hard at the one-piece solutions like Holophone and competing DPA. Other rigs give you more choices for controlling the "sound stage", but since you're not shooting film or video, noone is going to know which tree this or that bird was sitting in. What's important is to be able to get your rig set up before it flies off.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[JonesH]

I'd also look into the MSM combo or the soundfield mics that record to 4 tracks and then you can extract the surround image in post.

Originally Posted by Avening

By the way, I do believe B&K is now DPA. The 4011 mics I've used in the past have all been B&K, but looking at the DPA's, they are the same mic. Who knew!?

They changed names in 1992 when B&K decided not to pursue the performance-mic market anymore but their 4006/4011 models still were very popular.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by David Rick

On the MSM side, another worthwhile combo would be MKH 800 Twin for front/rear and a MKH 8030 (or either MKH 800) for side duty. That gets the job done with only two mic bodies, though you will end up mounting them vertically.

If only..............

The MKH 8030 only exists in the mind of the designer with no release date known yet.

As of now:-
MKH 30
Neumann KK 120 + KMA
MKH 800
MKH 800 TWIN

[Audiop]

I read some rumour on the net where one guys friend had a talk with Sennheiser (a designer I think) and he was told that there will be no MKH8030.

That's a shame if it's true and I hope not. I'd love to see a 8030.


/Peter

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by John Willett

If only..............

The MKH 8030 only exists in the mind of the designer with no release date known yet.

John,

I knew that, but one can always dream. Actually, MKH 30 is what I meant to type.

David

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I read some rumour on the net where one guys friend had a talk with Sennheiser (a designer I think) and he was told that there will be no MKH8030.

This is *not true* - someone mis-read a reply from Sennheiser.

The MKH 8030 *is* on the "roadmap" for the MKH 8000 range - it's just that there is no planned release date yet.

A fig-8 is not an easy capsule to design - but Sennheiser would be crazy not to include it in the range at some time.

[muziekschuur]

Holophone 5.1. microphone

Or Soundfields surround microphone
The new ST350

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by muziekschuur

Holophone 5.1. microphone

Or Soundfields surround microphone
The new ST350

Both good mics - but how do they perform in the wet and damp of a rain forest?

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by John Willett

This is *not true* - someone mis-read a reply from Sennheiser.

The MKH 8030 *is* on the "roadmap" for the MKH 8000 range - it's just that there is no planned release date yet.

A fig-8 is not an easy capsule to design - but Sennheiser would be crazy not to include it in the range at some time.

Certainly hope you're correct John! :-)

I would pick up a pair the day they hit the market.


/Peter

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Certainly hope you're correct John! :-)

I would pick up a pair the day they hit the market.

So would I.

Send an e-mail to Sennheiser in Germany asking about the fig-8. The more they realise how much people want it, the sooner it will come.