More versitale trumpet sound

[SynthLine09]

I'm a trumpet performance major, and I record myself quite often. My music school only contains about 300 students, and I find that sometimes instead of hiring musicians to play with me it is often easier to write my own music and record myself! So I end up with a bit of a mix between jazz, classical, and pop music. If anyone is familiar with Chris botti I'd say its about the same idea as him...only with a lot more electronic elements thrown in as well. Anywho, I'm actually fairly happy with the sound i'm getting right now using an SM57 with an FMR RNP. Its certainly a great starting point, but I feel the need for an upgrade, and maybe a little more versitility in my recordings, as I can play in a number of different styles (very bright and powerful or very dark soft and subdued.) Any suggestions on a mic preamp combo for trumpet? I've heard ribbons work well for brass..I thought maybe a fathead. Or possibly an SM7B? As far as a preamp I'm not really sure, UA has some nice looking stuff...

[SynthLine09]

Heck, if anyone could just name the mics used on trumpet in this video that'd be fantastic. Looks to be like a nuemann which I sure as hell cant afford! whats the other?



YouTube - Yo Yo Ma & Chris Botti

[Howie J]

Fellow trumpet player here!! The second mic looks a little like a AKG C12, but I'm not 100% convinced. That's another "cheap" mic.

Ribbons are the "go to" mic for brass in many camps. I posted about a YouTube post of Alison Balsom's Bach: Works for trumpet disc. AEA R84 ribbon, and a Neumann TLM series (after some help from the forum). The Royer 122 or Coles 4038 would be another set of favs around here.

I have a pair of the fatheads with stock transformers. I've been practicing up slowly but surely to do some recording myself with picc. Looking to do some of the Telemann Heroic music, some wedding pieces (Te Deum, voluntaries, etc.) and possibly the Torelli sonata. I recorded my practice the other day with my Zoom H4n and was actually surprised by the sound. Damn little thing keeps amazing me. Anyway, for the price on the Fatheads they are a quick way to get into ribbons, but don't overlook a nice condenser either. For all the different styles you're playing, a well rounded LDC could be more versatile than a ribbon. It also depends on what kind of tone you naturally have. Botti has that fuzzy/warm/soft thing going on so he never really gets piercing overtones going like a lead player or principal on Mahler 5/7. I guess it depends on how much money you are going to put into this and if you're buying a pre to go with it right away.



Howie J

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by SynthLine09

Heck, if anyone could just name the mics used on trumpet in this video that'd be fantastic. Looks to be like a nuemann which I sure as hell cant afford! whats the other?
YouTube - Yo Yo Ma & Chris Botti

Judging from the cable (looks like a tuchel/multipin), that is most likely a U67 and an AKG C12VR on his horn. Both of which will (most likely) be way out of your budget.

I'm also a brass player, and endorser (tho not monetarily!) of ribbon mics. Coles 4038 is probably my fave ribbon for trumpet, but is totally context dependent. Sometimes a ribbon is not 'exciting' (bright) enough for some tastes, and thus, the U67 and other tube/condenser mics are sought for that certain sound.

If you had the budget, I'd suggest auditioning a Coles 4038, or try finding a used Sony C-38b - very mellow mic that loves brass instruments. Another contender is the Sennheiser 441 - a dynamic mic not unlike the SM57, but quite a bit more hifi and pleasant all-round mic. It would be the cheapest of the lot, but still around 4-500 USD used.

Tho I have not used the FatHead and others, I do have a few cheap chinese ribbon mics to go with my expensive ones - it is really worth auditioning some to determine what sound you are seeking. Suffice to say, there are some cheap ribbon mics that have impressed me: not that I'm going to sell my AEA or Royer mics, but - can mos.def. be contenders for that smooth brass sound...

Hope this helps,

[Steffmo]

It cerainly looks like a c12 VR and a U67. I have 2 c2VR...and HAD a wonderful 67....stolen.

At any rate, I'm not a C12VR hater, but I only hear U67 in that recording. I simply can't get my head around a C12VR on trumpet, unless its the worlds darkest preamp.

I've recorded a few well known and excellent trumpet players, and I can tell you that they all loved the Coles 4038. In two occasions they were not familiar with the mic and specifically asked about it.

Alan Rubin, Mr. Fabulous from the Blues Brothers section and a first call NYC session cat told me he liked it as much as his personal U47.

I've also used the AEA riibbons a lot. They hold their own with the Coles, and I would think would be an excellent choice.

I haven't used the Royer in a similar enough situation to comment.

If those are out of budget maybe try some of Cascade's ribbons.

In a dynamic I think an RE20 would also work well for you, certianly way better than a 57, although I'm not surprised the 57 is working for you. A 57 seems to be acceptable on almost anything. Maybe not spectacular, but they never really suck.

[trubac]

trumpet player here ...
I particulary hate the SM57 for trumpet , I must say ...
What I have tried and/or own :

If you want to go the Dynamic way, i would suggest the :
- Beyer M69, M88
- Electro Voice RE20
- any good bass drum mic : D12, D112, etc ... (tried them all live)
- never tried the SM7b

If you want to go the Ribbon way, i would suggest the :
- Beyer m260 (old grey/blue) great !
- B&O BM3/ or BM4 (not the later BM6), very close to RCA.
-Mélodium 42B (french equivalent to the RCA 44BX)
I wouldn't go the chinese way (Nady, etc...) they are much too boomy and dark for the trumpet. The AEA R84 must be great as the Coles 4038/4040 (heared it once in a studio on a Flugelhorn, great). Royer 121, used by Sandoval ?
With good ribbon you get the closer sound to the real sound. for studio that is really what I think is the best. You've got a lot of color to play with the placement and strond proximity effct they got, and they support EQ with pleasure.

The only real (not the cheapy chinese or AT4033tutt) condenser I've tried is my newly aquired Sony C38B ... really wonderfull !
As the trumpet is quite harsh all the cheap chinese stuff are to blame as they got this horrible bump on the highs.

Note that Botti play completly desaxed from the mic and quite close to benefit from the proximity effect and change of response when desaxed.
Is that his Committee trumpet ? unusual water keys .. I've got a Committee 3 here

Gilles

[area51recording]

+1 on the Fathead. I like it a lot on trumpets and saxes as well....

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by trubac

Note that Botti play completly desaxed from the mic and quite close to benefit from the proximity effect and change of response when desaxed.
Is that his Committee trumpet ? unusual water keys .. I've got a Committee 3 here

Gilles

I did notice the mic placement, its something I'll have to try in a a nicer room.


Thank you everyone for all the mic suggestions! I suppose its worth mentioning my budget. I'm planning on $1000 for a mic and another $1000 for a preamp.

For the mics I'm sort of leaning towards an AEA R84 if I go the ribbon rout. Not sure about condensers, the Sony sure dos LOOK nice, but its a bit pricey. I'm also very interested in hearing the new TLM 102 on trumpet. Could be a nice workhorse, though I can't picture it being as "dark" as i'd like.


Any suggestions on preamps? Great river maybe? Anyone used the SSL XLogic alpha channel? It looks quite versatile . The universal audio 710 twin-finity looks cool as well, though I have not seen many reviews

[trubac]

Aea R84 + Great River seems a good choice .
Don't know the GR but own a Phoenix Audio DRS, they are in the same league, the DRS got 80db of gain thou, nice for ribbons ...

As for the C38b you can find some secong hand right in your budget if you are little patient

[Howie J]

AEA TRP: AEA The Ribbon Mic Pre | Sweetwater.com
if you're getting a ribbon

or

True Systems:

True Systems P-SOLO | Sweetwater.com

or the Ribbon version: True Systems P-Solo Ribbon | Sweetwater.com

Grace is always a consideration: Grace Design m101 | Sweetwater.com

Just a few options to add to the other good suggestions.

Howie J

[malaclypse]

i play the trombone, and use a stock fathead. gives a nice smooth, mellow sound. i'm sure it would work well for any brass and saxes too.

[Claude G.]

Claude Gnocchi – The CTS Group Yes, those are VERY expensive mics Botti is using (except the AEA 84 ribbon, which can be had for about $1500). I am also a trumpeter and a recording studio owner/operator. Notice I didn't say "engineer," as in my opinion, this is a moniker reserved for true pros who have a few or many albums to their credit....

in any event, I've been blowing trumpet for a good 47 years and have owned a studio for the past 16 years. I have a lot of gear and currently have or have owned many microphones; including the Coles 3038, AEA 84, Telefunken AK47, as well as a host of "custom jobs by folks like Michael Joly, Larry Villela, and others- enough rambling...my recommended "inexpensive" mics for trumpet - ADK S-7; any of the modified SDCs from Michael Joly, and for harmon-muted trumpet; the Beyer 130 ribbon! The one "catch" is that you must have a great preamp to make these mics sing - my favorites - Great River M1NV, ADK AP-1, and a racked pair of Ward-Beck 470D console strips by Dave Thomas, up in Canada.

While I'm no Chris Botti (wish I looked like him!), I can blow a tune or two...check out some of my music and recordings on the site above. My current studio gear and "engineering" ability have grow since these recordings, but I have not updated the site......maybe next month!

[rumleymusic]

The amount of HF roll-off needed to get that smooth sound out of those mics must have been extraordinary. My favorite recent trumpet recordings were either done with vintage RCA ribbons or newer AEA's. The 84 is very nice on trumpet if placed just off axis of the bell. Some good, distant room mics are a good idea to open up the sound.

[Jungle Jazz]

I'm interested in this topic too, looking for a good trumpet mic for live jazz. I've used an SM57 and SM7B with acceptable results, but I'm looking for something a little more open. I've tried a couple of ribbons, but I'm not crazy about them for live use.

Claude, which version of the ADK S7 do you use? It looks like ADK recommends the S7B for brass.

Is anyone using a TLM102 or TLM193 on trumpet? A Beyer MC834 seems like it could work well on trumpet as well--anyone have experience with it on horn? Any other small footprint, neutral-ish LDCs that anyone can recommend?

[trubac]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I'm interested in this topic too, looking for a good trumpet mic for live jazz. I've used an SM57 and SM7B with acceptable results, but I'm lookign for something a little more open. I've tried a couple of ribbons, but I'm not crazy about them for live use.

Claude, which version of the ADK S7 do you use? It looks like ADK recommends the S7B for brass.

Is anyone using a TLM102 or TLM193 on trumpet? A Beyer MC834 seems like it could work well on trumpet as well--anyone have experience with it on horn? Any other small footprint, neutral-ish LDCs that anyone can recommend?

in dynamics : try the Beyer M69 (more than the excelent M88) miles ahead from the SM57 (I hate it for trumpet)
as for the LDC the Sony C38b is a must.

edit : I've found the EV 408 very pleasant and versatile for live with trumpet.


I is really better to have a very good dynamic than an average LDC
I won't go in the TLM direction.

[Claude G.]

JJ: Yes, I have the S7B which ADK (Larry Villela) had me Beta test when he was "tweaking" it. It is similar to a ribbon, but not as dead as a ribbon - I have to agree w/a few of the other posters here, I don't like the "ribbon sound" much; I prefer a great medium or large diaphragm condenser, and I love the Sony C37 or 38, but IT IS EXPENSIVE! On a lark (of sorts) I sent out a cheapo SP-1 (MXL, I think) to Michael Joly, and it is now an incredibly useful condenser for trumpet...much more so than my Sputnik...which I will be selling soon.........go figure.....

[PlugHead]

If you look around, the Sony C38b (not the re-issue, but the orig.) can be found for $500-750 USD. It's a great trumpet mic, and exceptional on saxes, percussion, gtr. cab, etc...

That said, I mostly prefer ribbons, but again, is context dependent...

[Claude G.]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

If you look around, the Sony C38b (not the re-issue, but the orig.) can be found for $500-750 USD. It's a great trumpet mic, and exceptional on saxes, percussion, gtr. cab, etc...

...Wha....I just looked at one on ebay and it was a few dollars shy of $2K!!! Show me one for $500 (in working condition) & I'll buy it right now....

[Jungle Jazz]

Originally Posted by Claude G.

JJ: Yes, I have the S7B which ADK (Larry Villela) had me Beta test when he was "tweaking" it. It is similar to a ribbon, but not as dead as a ribbon - I have to agree w/a few of the other posters here, I don't like the "ribbon sound" much; I prefer a great medium or large diaphragm condenser, and I love the Sony C37 or 38, but IT IS EXPENSIVE! On a lark (of sorts) I sent out a cheapo SP-1 (MXL, I think) to Michael Joly, and it is now an incredibly useful condenser for trumpet...much more so than my Sputnik...which I will be selling soon.........go figure.....

Thanks, Claude. I'm curious to try that one on horns, as well as the S7. How wide is the pick up pattern? I've found that many lower cost cardioid LDCs tend to have wide patterns, which can make them tougher to work with in live situations.

[Claude G.]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

Thanks, Claude. I'm curious to try that one on horns, as well as the S7. How wide is the pick up pattern? I've found that many lower cost cardioid LDCs tend to have wide patterns, which can make them tougher to work with in live situations.

Can't help you there as I only use mine strictly in the studio; about 4-5 inches from the bell of the trumpet. Just for yuks, I just ordered one of the new TLM 102's.....pulled the trigger on it after reading many positive comments from folks I trust......I'll let you know how that works when I get it.

[Jungle Jazz]

I've got a TLM102, and I like it pretty well. I haven't tried it on trumpet yet, but I have used it on sax. It actually has a pretty tight pattern, and it has a neutral midrange with a bump in the "articulate" area of the high end. It's quite small, which I like, and the off axis rejection is quite good. The only thing I've noticed is that it is rather flat dimensionally, as it doesn't give much depth to the sound. It works great for voice over, even in a bad room.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Claude G.

...Wha....I just looked at one on ebay and it was a few dollars shy of $2K!!! Show me one for $500 (in working condition) & I'll buy it right now....

Skip eBay - I bought a pr. thru GS classifieds for $1400, so...

You gotta look long and hard tho!

[Claude G.]

Guys: Just got my TLM 102 about 2 hours ago.....I had a few open tracks on my recordings and decided to see how it tracked my trumpet ---in short FABULOUS! This tiny little gem recorded the true sound of the trumpet so well that I had to take out of the chain all EQ and other artificial things I had on my APB Dynasonics desk! IF YOU ARE ATRUMPET PLAYER YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO BUY THIS MIC.....I have retired all my other mics (Sputnik, Rode TLM, a large variety of mid-level ribbon mics, and many others in that category/price). I can recommend this little bugger w/out ANY reservations...now the problem is I want to buy an expensive Neumann!!!!! P.S. I ran it w/a Great River ME 1NV; with a modified Art VLA comp after the mic pre, straight into my DA-38......magic! I'll try other combinations and report back......

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by Claude G.

Guys: Just got my TLM 102 about 2 hours ago.....I had a few open tracks on my recordings and decided to see how it tracked my trumpet ---in short FABULOUS! This tiny little gem recorded the true sound of the trumpet so well that I had to take out of the chain all EQ and other artificial things I had on my APB Dynasonics desk! IF YOU ARE ATRUMPET PLAYER YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO BUY THIS MIC.....I have retired all my other mics (Sputnik, Rode TLM, a large variety of mid-level ribbon mics, and many others in that category/price). I can recommend this little bugger w/out ANY reservations...now the problem is I want to buy an expensive Neumann!!!!! P.S. I ran it w/a Great River ME 1NV; with a modified Art VLA comp after the mic pre, straight into my DA-38......magic! I'll try other combinations and report back......

Audio clips please??!?!

[Claude G.]

Guys...I'm one of these OLD farts...I don't know how to insert an audio clip here. My studio is all analog until I get to the Masterlink, and then I send that CD to mastering.....I do have a business partner who puts up all my music, trumpet methods, etc, on a few websites, but he is out of the net for a while. You can check this site, but the recordings are all pretty old and certainly not w/the TLM 102.

Claude Gnocchi – The CTS Group

[Jungle Jazz]

So, Claude, you like the the TLM102 better than the ADK S7B for a jazz trumpet?

[Claude G.]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

So, Claude, you like the the TLM102 better than the ADK S7B for a jazz trumpet?

In general, yes. Because as good as the ADK S7B is, it is more of a "Ribbon sound" while the 102 gives me something closer to that sound which you hear in a lot of recordings by Miles, Chet, etc. - that is because those guys recorded trough the big expensive Neumanns......so now, I have two distinct flavors of mic which are very usable for trumpet....

[Claude G.]

....oh, and forgot to mention that the bad part of the 102 is that it now gets me wanting to buy one of the big expensive Neumanns....I figure that if this little inexpensive mic is so good...what are the big ones like? Remember that the famous Rudy Van Gelder used these very secretive (he never has shared his gear list!) German microphones....it is believed that they were premium Neumanns...maybe there IS something to these mics which no one else has yet been able to duplicate...?

[trubac]

Originally Posted by Claude G.

....oh, and forgot to mention that the bad part of the 102 is that it now gets me wanting to buy one of the big expensive Neumanns....I figure that if this little inexpensive mic is so good...what are the big ones like? Remember that the famous Rudy Van Gelder used these very secretive (he never has shared his gear list!) German microphones....it is believed that they were premium Neumanns...maybe there IS something to these mics which no one else has yet been able to duplicate...?

I've played on a tube a U47 tube neumann ... and I really prefered my B&O ribbon ... the soundman too.
I thought that brass BlueNotes' where on RCA77DX ... i've found a BlueNote session placement plan, and the brasses (sax and trumpet ) were on 77DX angled 90° from the drummer to use the figure of 8 of the RCA ...

Someones has try the CAd 100s ?

[leadplayer]

Another trumpet player here... Speaking to my trumpet brothers, I've collected many mics, and like our collections of mouthpieces, mutes, and horns, they all have their character and purpose. I've used on myself and
other trumpet players and sections RCA44,77, the Coles, TLM 170's,
SF-12, Royer 121, U-47, U-67. They all have served well, depending on the environment and orchestration. I would think that new Nuemann 102 would need some HF roll-off, too. There is a new Josephson mic in the 7...series
that is reminiscent of the Sony C-37 (mechanical change to omni/cardioid).
I used to have the 37's and they were great on trumpet (sold--too noisey).
Speaking about the Botti recording-- it should be noted that the engineer for that is Richard King-- (you see him at the board in one of the camera angles)
one of the world's best!! Don't hesitate to try omni (or even a pair in omni).