Neutral to darker sounding mics

[bass man]

Hi

I am a big fan of tlm 193 / tlm 170 / U89 mics, obviously i like the neutral and darker sounding mics . Already have a pair of tlm 193 and 4x km 184 which are a little brighter but very nice sounding mics .U89 or tlm 170 would be my first choice but they are way out of my budget even used . I am looking for a pair of darker / neutral sounding cond. LD`s ala u89/tlm 170 on a tighter budget. Can you recommend something or should I get a pair of ribbons ( maybe china ribbons ?!?!) ?
I have c 414 b uls, tlm 103 etc but these are almost always to bright for my taste . And yes i record acoustic music and jazz mostly .

Thanks for the tips

[The Listener]

I'll repeat myself... but I haven't used many better mics than LDC Gefell UM70 and SDC M70 in the reasonable price range, both can be described as rather "dark" compared to newer LDC and SDC mics. Both models are very natural sounding for my taste and no sibilance issues whatsoever and rather cheap when compared to used Neumanns. I have the vintage ones not the new transformerless UMT version. LDC UM70 is really smooth and detailed, M70 is even a bit darker and great for stringed instruments, but also very good in combinations with other, a bit brighter mics - you get natural mids from it and you can add additional highs and maybe faster/more pronounced transients (if desired) from other mics... Also the two models work beautifully together.
Actually I just posted one audio clip regarding some other theme in which I used only those two mics and no eq on them - only some reverb and balance/panning: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5010577-post54.html

When choosing them I had also Shure KSM141, SM81, AKG C451 and Sennheiser MD441 (also neutral to dark dynamic mic) at my disposal, but Gefells gave the most natural colour, nice string sound, without annoying plastic...

Try them and be happy.

... there are of course pricier options in the "neutral to dark" territory, too.

[bass man]

Hey thanks for reply .

I dont think you can call the C 451 neutral sounding . In comparasion to km 184 they are pretty thin sounding and km`s are hyped in high range .
I am really talking about tlm 170 kind of sound . Maybe i should look at the ribbons .....

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by bass man

Hey thanks for replay .

I dont think you can call the C 451 neutral sounding . In comparasion to km 184 they are pretty thin sounding and km`s are hyped in high range .
I am really talking about tlm 170 kind of sound . Maybe i should look at the ribbons .....

Of course. But I didn't call C451 neutral sounding... I just listed a couple of usual mid-priced "guitar" SDC mics we chose from... the AKG is rather hyped, "thin", sometimes good for live... I had KM184 in use and they are ok, but I never used the TLM170 you mention.
Gefell M70 is something completely different than AKG, I think I would choose it over KM184, too, but never compared directly.
UM70 is a great mic on its own, more natural than TLM193 I guess, since it is "darker", "smoother" than most new Neumanns.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by bass man

Hi

I am a big fan of tlm 193 / tlm 170 / U89 mics, obviously i like the neutral and darker sounding mics . Already have a pair of tlm 193 and 4x km 184 which are a little brighter but very nice sounding mics .U89 or tlm 170 would be my first choice but they are way out of my budget even used . I am looking for a pair of darker / neutral sounding cond. LD`s ala u89/tlm 170 on a tighter budget.

The TLM 193, TLM 170 and U89 are almost the same mic.

They all use the same capsule.

The TLM 193 and TLM 170 are both transformerless, but the 193 is cardioid only, while the 170 is 5-pattern switchable.

The U89 has a transformer - so you will get a similar sound to the 170 / 193 but with the added "colour" of a transformer.

[NorseHorse]

On the darker side:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...mt56-pair.html

Some of the older Schoeps roll off nicely on the high end. Sort of on the ribbon side of condenser. Not necessarily flat though.

[bass man]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The TLM 193, TLM 170 and U89 are almost the same mic.

They all use the same capsule.

The TLM 193 and TLM 170 are both transformerless, but the 193 is cardioid only, while the 170 is 5-pattern switchable.

The U89 has a transformer - so you will get a similar sound to the 170 / 193 but with the added "colour" of a transformer.

I know this , i had all of them and still have 2x tlm 193 .... Thanks anyway

[bass man]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

On the darker side:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...mt56-pair.html

Some of the older Schoeps roll off nicely on the high end. Sort of on the ribbon side of condenser. Not necessarily flat though.

LD , budget ....

[bass man]

Anybody ?

[summer_room]

Yes, ribbons - please check them out. When I heard 2 Coles 4038 in blumlein side by side with a Neumann usm69i, I was sold.
I bought a Royer SF12 shortly after, and it is almost allways my prefered color now, I find it more natural, warm and cosy, compared to condensers.

But make sure you use short cable lengths and a premium preamp with passive ribbons :-)

-jon

[Baithak]

Hi Bass Man : I feel the pain; after going through the high and low condensers I have found them to be too tizzy, especially combined with today's digital recorders;

Among the darker mics, I was recommended the Pearl CC22; definitely darker i.e. more balanced but I did not really like the sound the two times I used it; seems like something is missing in the mids.

Gefell M295 is nice but once again I did not find any special magic in this mic.

So I have fallen back on my trusted MD441, RE16s from EV and other more neutral dynamic mics and eq the treble if I want the "condenser mic" feel. The Royer Ribbons, SF-12 in particular, are also excellent if you don't want that high end tizz and also take EQ very beautifully. But that was until ...

Two months ago I finally purchased the newly released CU-44x MK II from Sanken; this now operates on Phantom power and while I have not absolutely ABed it with everyone of my high end mics, it is definitely in a league of its own for it ability to reproduce naturally whatever is placed in front of it; For a cardiod mic it also has the most stunning off-axis response. Unfortunately I did not have the budget to buy two but will do so as soon as possible so I can try an XY pair. To my ears, for acoustic classical instruments that I mic, it sounds better than the DPA 4011, Schoeps MK41 and the other aforementioned SDCs.

Good luck with your search and I hope you report what you find,
Baithak

[bass man]

Originally Posted by Baithak

Hi Bass Man : I feel the pain; after going through the high and low condensers I have found them to be too tizzy, especially combined with today's digital recorders;

Among the darker mics, I was recommended the Pearl CC22; definitely darker i.e. more balanced but I did not really like the sound the two times I used it; seems like something is missing in the mids.

Gefell M295 is nice but once again I did not find any special magic in this mic.

So I have fallen back on my trusted MD441, RE16s from EV and other more neutral dynamic mics and eq the treble if I want the "condenser mic" feel. The Royer Ribbons, SF-12 in particular, are also excellent if you don't want that high end tizz and also take EQ very beautifully. But that was until ...

Two months ago I finally purchased the newly released CU-44x MK II from Sanken; this now operates on Phantom power and while I have not absolutely ABed it with everyone of my high end mics, it is definitely in a league of its own for it ability to reproduce naturally whatever is placed in front of it; For a cardiod mic it also has the most stunning off-axis response. Unfortunately I did not have the budget to buy two but will do so as soon as possible so I can try an XY pair. To my ears, for acoustic classical instruments that I mic, it sounds better than the DPA 4011, Schoeps MK41 and the other aforementioned SDCs.

Good luck with your search and I hope you report what you find,
Baithak

Thanks for the reply !

Its kind of hard to find this mics here and try them .... Actually I wouldn`t hesitate to buy a pair of tlm 170 or U89 but i have enough mics for what i do and actually i am looking for extra pair on budget . I was thinking about AT mics or some cheaper ribbons etc .....
We `ll see

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by bass man

Anybody ?

You want U89. That's what you should get. thumbsup

On a budget? They sell them on ebay for ca.1000EU. That's still affordable in my book for such a mic. Good ribbons don't cost less, but you'd probably be very happy with a pair of Coles 4038 (I only heard recordings, didn't use the Coles personally).
I own one chinese ribbon - RB500 and although it is useful on guitar amps, it is not something that could be used as a stereo pair really succesfully - only if you want to simulate a really vintage, lo-fi live sound. It is really dark, though and natural (but no neutral) sounding - percussion comes out nice and soft, but somewhat too coloured and a bit lo-fi-sh.

There is no really good & dark for cheap as far as I know. Maybe Oktavas - I tried MK101, they are also dark, but somewhat grainy in the mids - to me it is not the same sexy smooth sound as the likes of U89 or Coles ribbons produce... But if the budget is a problem you can find good use for Oktavas as drum overheads (also with the MC012 capsules), sax, clarinet mic, etc. I also liked Beyerdynamics MC930 on clarinet and many praise them as drum overheads - they are darker, but I find them too built up in the low mids.

What do you need the mics for? As general stereo pair? All-round mics?

If for different purposes - EV RE20, Audio-technica 4047, Beyerdynamic M99, Sennheiser MD441, are all more or less "darker" mics that we used on different jazz live recordings. Also the Schoeps MK21 as drum and percussion overheads on some venues that owned them. AKG 414 in some of its reincarnations is also a very sweet and smooth mic - we mostly used it as drum and percussion overheads and on double bass. I don't know about the newer ones, the ones we got to use were from the early 80's, but I don't know which model.

UM70 (also vintage, transformer version) is around 500 - 700eu, but if you want even "darker", U89 it is. You should really try one out (UM70 I mean), though. It is the best "cheap" LDC option I ever heard.

You could fool around with low budget chinese ribbons, but I don't know if that is really what you are after if you actually want U89...

[Plush]

I have not found any budget mics that imitate the sound of the 170/89 family.
The whole point is that that level of quality and voicing is only available from Neumann.

Pearl CC22 is a fantastic mic, but not dark sounding or neutral like the above. MG UM70
is sparkly on top and not similar either.

The U89 is my favorite and these do come up used in the $1500---$1800 range.
Any time I see them I contemplate grabbing another.

[7rojo7]

U89 (Ac gtr) and the UM70 (Piano) are 2 of my favorite close mics. U89 have great pattern choices, everyone needs a pair of mics like these. My first experience with half omni besides the tube mics
The only experience I've had with a TLM170 was as a Rap vocal mic, it was big, the U89 is small.
My new fave is the Brauner PhantomV, but not dark by any means

[mljung]

Originally Posted by The Listener

There is no really good & dark for cheap as far as I know. Maybe Oktavas - I tried MK101, they are also dark, but somewhat grainy in the mids - to me it is not the same sexy smooth sound as the likes of U89 or Coles ribbons produce...

Oktava MK-101 Yes that's a dark microphone - to remove the grainy mids you'll have to do the Joly thing.
I have a MK-101 and got it modded, and it took the grains away... but it's still dark.

Maybe consider this one too: ADK Microphones - Audiophile Series Microphone Catalog - Model S-7B

I have the S-7, which I really think is a fine mike, and not "treblish" either, but the B version is the dark one.

Moving up in price I like the Milab DC-196, it's not dark but what I would consider neutral. No treble peaks here. A fine microphone!

::
Mads

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The U89 has a transformer - so you will get a similar sound to the 170 / 193 but with the added "colour" of a transformer.

What Martin Schneider from Neumann says about that.

I find the statement from Martin Schneider well supported by these samples.

[Yetti]

So many budget ribbon mics, nice for a darker option without harshness.
I have a apex 215 that cost like $125, it sounds really good for things like tamborine, mandolin, backup vocals really.... anything that you want to be smooth without a "bite".
The sm7b is also a darker natural option.

[sunflute]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Shure KSM141. These are great mics, can be had for a reasonable price (ca. 500 a pair used) and are somewhat dark, neutral sounding.

I recently recorded I classical recital i played and was really pleased with the results.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by sunflute

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Shure KSM141.

Originally Posted by bass man

I am looking for a pair of darker / neutral sounding cond. LD`s ala u89/tlm 170 on a tighter budget.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Sorry my mistake.

[Adebar]

Neutral and very detailed but on the darker side I see also the Josephson e22S. It is often used on percussions. Recently I tried it on trumped where I mostly prefered the U89.
Definitely more than only an alternative to the U89 in this situation.

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by sunflute

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Shure KSM141. These are great mics, can be had for a reasonable price (ca. 500 a pair used) and are somewhat dark, neutral sounding.

I recently recorded I classical recital i played and was really pleased with the results.

These are no way "dark" mics. Nice and useful, yes, but not dark at all.

btw, I did a shoot-out on guitar between Shure KSM141, SM81 and Gefell M70 and KSM141 was by far the brightest of the three.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by The Listener

These are no way "dark" mics. Nice and useful, yes, but not dark at all.

btw, I did a shoot-out on guitar between Shure KSM141, SM81 and Gefell M70 and KSM141 was by far the brightest of the three.

Interesting, I find the SM81 brighter than the KSM141. And from comparing the KSM141 to other mics I've tried I found it to be less bright. Interesting how each one can perceive things so differently.

[bass man]

Hm i was hoping i could get away with some cheaper ribbons maybe .....

[Unique]

Audio Technica AT-4047, very neutral (flat) and very extended low frequency response contrarily to what can be expected from a cardioid microphone.

Beyerdynamic M-130 (figure 8 ribbon) ... very nice sounding ribbon, never harsh ... figure 8 provides tremendous side isolation and in some cases desirable proximity effect low frequency bump.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Unique

Audio Technica AT-4047

I would have not use 'neutral' for describing this mic. It was designed for delivering a kind of vintage color: you may listen to it on piano in comparison with the AKG C414B-XLS and the Audio-Technica AT4050 here.

I agree that both the AT4047 and the M130 are nice mics. Although not much versatile because of their single directivity and their sound rather specific.

[7rojo7]

Since you're looking for a pair of "not bright" and consider ribbons as an alternative to LD condensors, Beyer M260, it's a hyper cardioid ribbon with a rolloff that starts at 80Hz. Small gtr amps, bone, tpt, OHs, HH cymbal spot, voice
or
AT AE3000 (SDC side address) for instruments (amps) or drum spots (snare, toms) to me it's 'dark' but detailed. rolloff and pad.
I've found that musicians (jazz, world and classical) make their sounds without mics and it's essential to listen to someone play first before choosing a mic, you can make a swag beforehand but...
AND, an artists concept of a sound may be very different from mine, if I'm the producer, I'll feel free to discuss this, otherwise... listen and do the best I can...
I have a Stedman N90 that I find can creep into the dark category for louder sources (kik, bass amp, bone)
I end up doing lots of things different depending on the performers
If you already have a bunch of dark mics, maybe you need a few neutrals or deadraisers

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by sunflute

Interesting, I find the SM81 brighter than the KSM141. And from comparing the KSM141 to other mics I've tried I found it to be less bright. Interesting how each one can perceive things so differently.

Yes, it is interesting. You can check the shoot-out though, it is normal that they should behave differently in different applications:

Shure KSM141 vs Shure SM81 vs Gefell M70 on acoustic guitar

(our domain is down at the moment, it will be back hopefully during the next week)

But in this particular case it was really bright. I also suspect that I have a really nice SM81 - I have heard a few and they are not all exactly the same, mine is from the early 90's, Made in USA and sounds really nice - round and full.. KSM 141 are quite neutral, but have nice and a bit pronounced high end, that is (for my taste) just a bit too much for close miced guitar (for example).

Of course it is most important what personal experience and hearing tells you.

[Johns]

Originally Posted by Plush

I have not found any budget mics that imitate the sound of the 170/89 family.
The whole point is that that level of quality and voicing is only available from Neumann.

Pearl CC22 is a fantastic mic, but not dark sounding or neutral like the above. MG UM70
is sparkly on top and not similar either.

The U89 is my favorite and these do come up used in the $1500---$1800 range.
Any time I see them I contemplate grabbing another.

I have to agree with Plush on this one. The mics the OP originally listed, TLM170, TLM193, and U89 are the only darker sounding LD mics I have used. They are dark, but not in the same way as a ribbon mic. The U89 and TLM170 are two of my favorites. I wish there was something out there that was cheaper with similar sound, but I haven't found it yet.