Nagra LB, Initial Impressions...

[mosrite]

I received the Nagra LB yesterday.

Initial impressions:

First class design: ergonomically wonderful, solid metal build (but yet lightweight).

Far less fiddly to operate than the Sound Devices 744t and 722t that I have used previously (as much as I liked those machines - would be great to have them side by side with the LB for comparison).

Full size connectivity too, and on such a small box - excellent (I despise adaptors).

Fast startup and totally intuitive operation (was able to get up and recording in lightning time, as with the Nagra VI).

I have not had the time to fully test its sound quality but initial impressions are of neutral and low noise preamps. There is detail and transparency but no mojo.

Monitoring section is clean and efficient.

I believe the converters in this little box perform admirably.

I ran a very basic preamp test against my Neve 1073DPD. 2 MK21's at indentical distance and side by side from an acoustic guitar in my living room.

MK21 - Neve 1073 Preamp - Nagra LB ADC
MK21 - Nagra LB Preamp - Nagra LB ADC

Recording was normalised and dithered to 16bit but nothing else done (44.1khz/16bit from 24bit original). And yes its mono, get over it

My opinion is that the Neve has that indentifiable richness and smoothed transients that simply works to my ears. The Nagra, on the other hand, while in some respects might be considered a touch flat or sterile is also very neutral and detailed.

Can you tell which is which?

[didier.brest]

Great test and great sound! I guess than B is the Neve? Anyway, I prefer B.

[mosrite]

Great test and great sound! I guess than B is the Neve? Anyway, I prefer B.

Aww c'mon give us more than that! what did you prefer and why? Wont reveal anything until a few others chime in. Would be interested in other folks observations...

[BrianHanke]

A is brighter and B is smoother. The difference is especially apparent in the middle of the clip. I can't say I'd really prefer one over the other. They both sound fine!

[Schaap]

I prefer B too. It has more 'depth' and overall smoother sound. A is what more flat. After about 10 sec is it best to hear this IMO.
Thanks for comparision.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by mosrite

what did you prefer and why?

I said that I prefer B. Why? Exacly for the reasons that you said why you prefer the Neve!

A sounds slgihtly thin with respect to B. But if I could not compare to B, I would say that A is great.

[mosrite]

Interesting observations.

I just installed batteries for the first time in the LB. How many times in your life can you say that it's a joy to load batteries into something? Very sad I know but testament to the design of this thing, it simply works

[Celloman]

I kinda like the openness of sample A, though B sounds a little thicker. I would be curious how a transformer-less outboard preamp compared to the LB.

Mike

[Dave Ferris]

They both sound very good. I too preferred "B", maybe just a tad richer sounding but "A" sounded fine has well. What, no piano ?!...just kidding.

Nice sounding machine, I'd love to have one. Thanks Mosrite and congrats on your acquisition.

[mosrite]

Thanks guys. So everyone prefers B ?

[fatal_error]

Hi all,

First off, this is a great forum! I'm a bit of a newb but I've got a couple of questions regarding the LB, hope that's OK

And also, apologies for thread hi-jack, it's just that no-one on the entire internet seems to have posted a proper pro / con review of the Nagra - well, except for this one (it's in French):

Sound Designers.Org :: Le son qui a du sens

I was about a day away from buying an LB (still sort of am) - what concerns me from the above review is that the fireware still seems glitchy, which is a worry a year after release. That and the fact that the internal editor can only be used at 44/48k 16 bit (unfortunately I only record at 96/24).

So, the £2000 question is: Nagra LB or SD 702T? Turns out the LB is £300-400 cheaper in the UK. I have a Fostex FR2 LE at the moment, so obviously either would be pretty much the t*ts by comparison

Sorry to troll, it's just that no-one seems to have a solid opinion on the above! Hi-jack over!

Also, I think B - it sounds fuller somehow - also, I think the attacks sound more accurate and the sustains richer. Of course, they both sound so good that my perceptions of quality could be entirely psychological.

Thanks! And congrats on the new gear, the LB looks amazing!

s.

[9sbean]

Very interesting, I prefer A. Thanks!thumbsup

[Plush]

It's apples and oranges , baby!

Why do you compare the LB to a AMS-Neve mic amp? Is there a logic to it?
I suppose you are comparing it to a Neve because you already have and like the Neve sound.

They are totally different and are designed to sound different.

Of course if you want the Neve sound, just go line in from it to the LB.

However, the philosophy of Nagra is neutrality.

The creative engineer/producer will shape the recording sound to his requirements after it is recorded.

The Nagra is an acquisition device.

[mosrite]

I think the following might suprise a lot of you:

Sample A was the Neve
Sample B was the Nagra

It's funny how we hear differently (or perhaps describe sound differently). A lot of the desciptions offered about the Nagra pre I personally would apply to the Neve sample, but there you go, as the right honourable Plush says "it's apples and oranges, baby"

Why do you compare the LB to a AMS-Neve mic amp? Is there a logic to it?
I suppose you are comparing it to a Neve because you already have and like the Neve sound.

There is logic if you are not convinced how well the LB holds up in the preamp department. By comparing it to a preamp I rate the sound of very highly gives me some kind of benchmark of quality to test it against. Although I totally agree with the fact that these are very different beasts and both have their place. I also agree that a transformerless pre would be interesting to test it against, perhaps the DAV?

The Nagra is an acquisition device.

I think this is exactly correct.

I was about a day away from buying an LB (still sort of am) - what concerns me from the above review is that the fireware still seems glitchy, which is a worry a year after release. That and the fact that the internal editor can only be used at 44/48k 16 bit (unfortunately I only record at 96/24).

So, the £2000 question is: Nagra LB or SD 702T? Turns out the LB is £300-400 cheaper in the UK. I have a Fostex FR2 LE at the moment, so obviously either would be pretty much the t*ts by comparison

Sorry to troll, it's just that no-one seems to have a solid opinion on the above! Hi-jack over!

Well if you require timecode then the LB in its current guise is not for you.

Regards the firmware, I havn't updated it yet, havn't even checked what version I have installed and wont until it adversely affects me! (seriously though, I havn't had the time and will check it soon)

Also, the editing functionality is not that important to me but it does seem a little frustrating to have that option but restricted to 16bit. But remember, the SD machines don't have that option at all.

The SD's are great machines but the things I outlined at the beginning of the thread just sell the LB to me. I now also have no doubt about the sound.

[mosrite]

And also, apologies for thread hi-jack, it's just that no-one on the entire internet seems to have posted a proper pro / con review of the Nagra - well, except for this one (it's in French):

Sound Designers.Org :: Le son qui a du sens

Just read it. I am amused by the reviewers assertion that the sound is "quite good."

However, I am concerned by the right channel thing. Might be an early issue unit thing (hopefully)

[mosrite]

BTW, just checked the firmware PDF, seems those problems that the review refers to are now fixed (the review was updated in July 2009 and latest firmware was released in December 2009). Also, it now seems possible to edit any type of file but with the limitation of not being able to view the waveform but a "tape" image instead (havn't tried it myself as of yet)...

[fatal_error]

Ack, now I don't know what to do! Recording B is a pretty persuasive argument...!

The thing is, I don't especially need the timecode on the 702T... I won't be looking (or probably able!) to upgrade for a number of years, so I thought I might as well pay the extra for TC as I'm not sure what my requirements will be in a couple of years. Is that a sensible move?

Hmmmm, full sized connectors are great things... and it does look / sound beautiful...

Eeeeeeeeee... I have no idea what to do now!

[fatal_error]

I'm looking at the SoftwareBulletin.pdf now - it says under the list of new features from V1.010 to V1.014 list that:

RAW files recorded on the LB can now be edited but without showing the waveform (replaced by a simulated piece of tape).

But that doesn't imply sample rate / bit depth right? It would be annoying if 44.1-48 / 16 bit were a software (not hardware) limitation - I actually think this feature is really, really useful (if it works!) - I could leave my laptop at home for epic sound collecting travels...

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I think the following might suprise a lot of you:

Sample A was the Neve
Sample B was the Nagra

Great results! I too thought there seemed to be a definite leaning towards B in the responses, with the underlying assumption being that it was the Neve. I'm happy regardless because this is the first preamp shootout where I actually heard a noticeable difference between the contenders.

[Schaap]

I'm surprised, but still like B more.

[Celloman]

I was using Sennheiser HD600 headphones, which are somewhat bright, but I liked the open sound of A, and B sounded a little darker/thicker. Both were usable, but I like open. I assume there are other preamps that are more open than the Neve, but I do not have first hand experience with the Neve. These days, I use mostly transformer-less preamps. Interesting comparison. The Nagra LB reminds me of the preamps in my Sonosax mixer.

Mike

[mosrite]

If you listen closely again to the samples (especially before the instrument begins) you will hear a touch more high hz noise with the Nagra (or is that detail??). One of the things I like about the Neve is a lower noise or tone that, to my ears, makes the instument stand out against a black acoustic backdrop.

[fatal_error]

I bought mine yesterday, should be here tomorrow!

Thanks for the samples and impressions, really helped me make me mind up.

[iluvatar]

How were the mics positioned? How far away were they from the guitar?

-Dan.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by mosrite

If you listen closely again to the samples (especially before the instrument begins) you will hear a touch more high hz noise with the Nagra

There are 2 tenths of second before the first guitar note: detecting the difference of noise levels requires a rather picky listening.

Measurement says that on these 2 tenths of second, B is 0.5 dB louder than A.

[mosrite]

I bought mine yesterday, should be here tomorrow!

Thanks for the samples and impressions, really helped me make me mind up.

No worries, you'll smile when you open the box (design, design, design...)


How were the mics positioned? How far away were they from the guitar?Slightly above and looking down at the instrument, approx 2-3 ft from guitar and aimed towards neck join.

[fatal_error]

Hi hi hi,

Yup, I did smile when I opened the box! And when I heard the thing! It's amazing. Or rather was - I updated the firmware to 1.102 and seem to have fried it. I now have a £2000 doorstop - there just aren't the words.

So, take my advice, and don't update. Nagra clearly have a flair for hardware and no f-ing clue about software.

Right, I'm going to drink a beer or 2 and wait for a response from Nagra...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fatal_error

Yup, I did smile when I opened the box! And when I heard the thing! It's amazing. Or rather was - I updated the firmware to 1.102 and seem to have fried it. I now have a £2000 doorstop - there just aren't the words.

Sorry to hear this, what a bummer!

Originally Posted by fatal_error

So, take my advice, and don't update. Nagra clearly have a flair for hardware and no f-ing clue about software.

Not true really - I have upgraded the firmware on my Nagra VI several times with no problem at any point and the machine getting better and better with each upgrade.

Originally Posted by fatal_error

Right, I'm going to drink a beer or 2 and wait for a response from Nagra...

Nagra give very good service, I'm sure they'll sort it for you quickly.

[fatal_error]

Phew - Nagra released a firmware update this morning (!) that seems to have fixed all the bugs that 1.102 introduced AND brought the unit back to life (i.e. it now stays turned on!). thumbsup

Again, phew!

And perhaps just for effect: pheeeeeewwwwwwwww!

You're right John, Nagra's customer service is very prompt. I will however think twice before upgrading the firmware again!

[mosrite]

Very strange, mine came shipped with version 1.102 and seems fine. Where did you get your unit from?