Budget ORTF pair for fixed setup in a church

[DaveD]

We're thinking of having a permanent ORTF setup in our church for recording the choir and I'm wondering what might be the best mic candidates say, under $1000 for a pair?

I noticed the Shure KSM137 online. Anyone had experience with these for choirs? They looked fairly flattish up top. Not looking for a huge trebble boost. Will be about 5 metres back from the choir.

Thanks for any ideas forthcoming!

[Petrus]

How about a pair of Oktava MK-012 with cardioid capsules? You would have money left for the flying rig, cables and coffee & cakes for the whole choir...

Sound on Sound says: "Because this mic doesn't produce a coloured response, it would be fine for classical and choral work, as well as for recording smaller ensembles (for example, folk, chamber, or ethnic music). Its small size also makes this mic suitable for broadcast, sound-for-picture, installation, and theatre situations."

and: "Given the low cost, the MK012 is a surprisingly competent and flexible microphone, suited to virtually any application where an accurate sound is sought."

I myself have the 3x2 capsule stereo set.

[audio ergo sum]

The Røde NT5 got some good endorsements here recently. They have come out in tests as the best among the low budget crowd. For $ 1,000 you could get a pair and a good preamp.

[pkautzsch]

Is this to be flown permanently?
You could look into the AudioTechnica compact mics, like the U 853,
ES 933, or Pro 45. All of these are really small and unobtrusive. Not sure about the pricing though...

[Murton]

I second the NT5 with a GOOD preamp. Pair the NT5's with a horrible low end pre and it will sound horrible and thin. Get a decent pair of pre's and it will shine. The conservatorium here uses a pair of schoepes, neumans and NT5's into one very nice mixing console.

The NT55's are also nice, with omni capsules they sound very nice.

My AKG SE391b's are nice but I think it might blow your budget.

[WVUtubadude]

+1 for the Oktavas. I recently got a pair off of eBay for around $300 and they sound amazing. You could get them NIB and still have half your money left.

[Jungle Jazz]

In that price range, you might want to investigate the Beyer MC930.

[9sbean]

Much lower than your budget - Superlux S241. Excellent sound quality with the most friendly price. Save some budget for a good mic pre.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

In that price range, you might want to investigate the Beyer MC930.

These mics have full low-mids because they are one of the flattest cardiods around. Off-axis response is good too, smooth and uncolored.

Here's an ORTF choral clip recorded in a large church:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/3711558-post80.html

P.S. If you call around you just may find an Internet dealer willing to sell a matched pair for around $800. I bought two pairs a few years ago from Front End Audio.

[jnorman]

AT4051s or a used pair of KM184s.

[Don S]

I wouldn't go for the Octavas. While the quality is decent for the price, they are not maintenance free mics. Some fail when the humidity or temperature changes. Sometimes they need the contacts between the cap and pre cleaned. You want a pair you leave up and know you're going to get a reliable performance. I would go with Shure or AT before Octava.

[didier.brest]

I prefer the Rode NT5 with respect to the Oktava MK-012 cardioid, the low mids of which are a bit muddy. Moreover I confirm the reliability issues with the Oktava.

Here included links for samples on piano in 19 cm AB, zero angle. I guess that at a distance the Rode would be still better with respect to the Oktava.

Rode NT5

Oktava MK-012 cardio

For your budget, I would also look at the Josephson C42. You may not appreciate its HF boost in the piano take here but it might provide a better clarity at a distance.

Josephson C42

Also mentioned previously Audio Technica:

AT 4041

[DaveD]

Thanks for the abundant replies. I'll sift through these options as time permits.

On an even cheaper note: has anyone heard the Line Audio CM3?

Cheers!

[Audiop]

Yes, CM3 is very good and I think they are very hard to beat for the money. I've mentioned it before and CM3 performs more or less at the same level as Earthworks and Sennheiser MKH's IME.


/Peter

[Nirvana5253]

+1 for the KSM137's - they're a little bright depending on what you're recording/ where you're at but a little EQ and no complaints. If they're going to be installed, the milspec build quality isnt really a buying consideration but I definitely recommend them. Very good sounding for the price. Look used too. Also if all else fails - check out a pair of sahiaman's little blondies/woodies or w/e he is making these days. Cant recommend them enough!

[mllrtms]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

P.S. If you call around you just may find an Internet dealer willing to sell a matched pair for around $800. I bought two pairs a few years ago from Front End Audio.

I just got quoted $850 through proaudiostar, a reasonable price for a matched pair.

[Jungle Jazz]

Warren Dent, who is now at Zen Pro Audio, is selling pairs for $799.

https://02ca94a.netsolstores.com/cart.aspx

[jnorman]

i have seen people get the mc930s for around $725 at musicians friend - you have to call them and make an offer. i still think at4051s are a better choice, however.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by DaveD

We're thinking of having a permanent ORTF setup in our church for recording the choir and I'm wondering what might be the best mic candidates say, under $1000 for a pair?

I noticed the Shure KSM137 online. Anyone had experience with these for choirs? They looked fairly flattish up top. Not looking for a huge trebble boost. Will be about 5 metres back from the choir.

Thanks for any ideas forthcoming!

I installed a pair of DPA4060 in my church and we couldn't be more pleased. You didn't describe the architecture but ours is fairly traditional with a divided chancel. The mics are hung at the crossing about 15ft off the floor and separated about 4 feet. They are suspended from the ceiling and are virtually invisible.

The frequency response is virtually flat and the match-head size of the mics means that it truly does not matter if they are not aimed and they cannot be seen unless you are looking for them. These are within your budget as well.

Rich

[CPTenorII]

Originally Posted by Murton

I second the NT5 with a GOOD preamp. Pair the NT5's with a horrible low end pre and it will sound horrible and thin. Get a decent pair of pre's and it will shine. The conservatorium here uses a pair of schoepes, neumans and NT5's into one very nice mixing console.

The NT55's are also nice, with omni capsules they sound very nice.

My AKG SE391b's are nice but I think it might blow your budget.

The Rode NT-5 is respectable. It is however, VERY SLOW! They are highly neutral except that they noticeably attenuate transients. This is a problem for chorus because it can destroy diction, especially of latin pieces. I love these mics, but wish there were a mod out there to speed them up. Tonally they are as good, or even better than, the Neumann KM84. They are much slower though.

[NorseHorse]

You really think they're too slow for choirs? To me, "choral transients" are hardly transient at all, especially compared to percussion. Given that NT5 are marketed heavily to the drum and percussion crowd, you'd think they'd handle a choir just find. I've used NT5 on drumset myself, and didn't notice any "slowness".

Distance and source/room ratio is the big thing that effects diction in choral music. (Oh, yes, and the CHOIR!)

To the OP, you've gotten some great recommendations. If your budget doesn't include any extra for a decent preamp, I wouldn't spend the whole $$ on microphones. Use some for a decent preamp. However, if these are running into the board at your church and the board is alright, then just go with that.

[CPTenorII]

Choral transients present a challenge in detail rather than strength. Various phonemes such as plosives mix together from singers in the group. since no one is "perfectly" aligned, smearing occurs. It's a lot worse when the mics or pres are slow. Since these phonemes at the end of words are what tell the brain what is being sung, losing them is deadly. In an ideal world, the chorus is well aligned on phases and breathing, the room is quiet and has minimal airflow, and the gear is lightning-fast. Needless to say, this is not a common situation.

[NorseHorse]

Any choir recordists care to chime in on these last few posts?

[DannyL]

Josephson C42's: a matched pair is around $750.00.

Very nice articulation. They sound similar to Neuman KM184's.

Like many other small condensers they have a bit of a rise above 8K.
This can be quite useful for applications like yours.

Best;
Danny

[DannyL]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Any choir recordists care to chime in on these last few posts?

I recently heard some projects recorded using AEA 44's.

Now THAT was impressive, but at $3600 or so it's over budget for a pair.

I have used: Neuman UM87's, KM 84's and M149's, Gefel UMT 70s', AKG 414's, Josephson C42's, AT 4033's (?) and Schoeps CK4's. Most often I have used ATI 8MX2 mic pre's, though I also did a lot of work on an old MCI JH416.

My favorite choir mics to date are the U87's. Used to use them with the batteries, actually, to avoid using phantom power. The M149's are quite detailed and open, but being tube mics, they have certain limitations. The KM84's were originally marketed in the US as choir mics. Pretty good all around mic, actually. The AKG 414's were quite bright, but exhibited decent detail, though I was not delighted with the low end response. The Schoeps are quite smooth, as one would imagine and the stereo image is very solid. The AT's were pretty good, the were not mine, so I don't exactly remember the model. The Gefel's are nice, though I wish they had a larger cavity inside the windscreen. The Josephson are a tad on the bright side, but the time that i used them I needed better articulation, so they were a good fit.

No matter what mic is used, shockmounts are always a good idea. Well worth the price.

Danny

[CPTenorII]

I just got a pair of Line Audio CM3. They are AMAZING. I highly recommend them for your application. They are not only great, but also cheap- about $350/pair. They are hand-made in Sweden and take a good 3 to 5 weeks to get to your door. If you want, you can order direct, but I got mine from Dominic @ Westlake Pro. I recommend them highly.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Any choir recordists care to chime in on these last few posts?

From what I have read so far-- it would be somewhat pointless.

Rich

[boojum]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Any choir recordists care to chime in on these last few posts?

My choir director prefers the DPA 4061's over the DPA 4006 TL's in a double-blind test. I ran them into the same machine recording in parallel. I sent her copies of the set and asked her which she preferred.

In comparisons here the differences are minimal. But the 4061's seem faster and have more of an airy, open feel to them. Yeah, techno-babble, but what do you expect from a LibArts guy?


Oooops. ORTF. Yikes. The 4061's are great for AB which would work well for the choir, too, as one poster has pointed out with 4060's, a better choice.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by boojum

My choir director prefers the DPA 4061's over the DPA 4006 TL's in a double-blind test. I ran them into the same machine recording in parallel. I sent her copies of the set and asked her which she preferred.

I'm curious.. did you try to angle the 4006 and use EQ to give them aprox. the same diffuse field response as the 4061?


/Peter

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by CPTenorII

I just got a pair of Line Audio CM3. They are AMAZING. I highly recommend them for your application. They are not only great, but also cheap- about $350/pair. They are hand-made in Sweden and take a good 3 to 5 weeks to get to your door. If you want, you can order direct, but I got mine from Dominic @ Westlake Pro. I recommend them highly.

A hidden secret. If people realised how good they are the world wold be flooded with CM3's. :-)

I have used them side by side with Earthworks and Sennheiser MKH8000 and they do fine in that company.

Sold my pair to a friend who was in desperate need of some good mic's but when I can find time and when my shop has the CM3 in stock I'll add two pairs to my collection. Problem is when they get a shipment they sell it out in a week and it's been like that for some time.


/Peter