Anybody Using the MKH-8040 with MKH-30 in Mid-Side ?

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hey everyone. I recently purchased a MKH 40 and MKH 30 to use in a Mid-Side arrangement in a stereo Rycote blimp. I'm currently in the field now in India recording and the results are good, really very good actually. There is a very nice stereo image and a natural, accurate and generally pleasing-to-the-ear sound. However, one criticism of the MKH 40 mic is that upon using it I now understand what other members of the forum have meant in the past by saying it is "dull, sterile, clinical, boring" etc. Although it sounds very good it also is a little, dare I say, boring?

I noticed this a little when I first got the mic and started using it, but I noticed it a lot more when I rented a MKH 8040 microphone and compared the two side-by-side. The 8040 has a warmer, more exciting, and for some reason "closer" (as in it sounds like you are physically closer to what's going on) sound then the MKH 40 classic.

So due to this experience I am thinking to replace the MKH 40 with a MKH 8040, and use the MKH 8040 + MZF 8000 with the MKH-30 as my new mid-side arrangement. I wish that the MKH 8030 was available, but I just talked with a Sennheiser rep today and was told that he "highly doubted it would be released in 2010." He did say however that many users were using the 8040 with either the MKH 800 or MKH 30 with good results.

So how about it, anybody used a MKH 8040 with a MKH 30 or MKH 800 in Mid-Side? How does it sound? Do the two mics blend well? Are you pleased? I'll post some samples of my own when I can get a mic here to India but first I would love to hear some experiences from some of the rest of this great community.

-Chris

[John Willett]

I have both (MKH 30, MKH 40 and MKH 8040) but have never used the 8040 as the mid.

I tend to use the MKH 30/40 as MS and the MKH 8040 for ORTF (on remote cables to keep it small).

Although the MKH 8030 is not yet available - the Neumann KK 120 *is* and the new KM-A (analogue version of the KM-D) is available at any moment and I know one person who has gone MS using the MKH 8040 with the KK120+KM-A (both are Nextel finish).

I did make my own MS mount from Rycote bits - using the new Lyre mounts to replace the large stereo hoops and O-rings as the Lyres are so much better. I took the Lyre from Rycote's new video mount and used that instead - it works perfectly with the 30/40 and, with slightly softer Lyres, with the 8040/KM120-A option. The two mics are clipped together with Rycote's dual clips.

[Denis Goekdag]

I was wondering the same thing, wether anybody was using an 8040+30 combo, as the 800 is pretty damn expensive just for side use. I ended up getting the 800, however.....which works excellently with the 8040.
I use the 30mm lyres to hold the 800 and the dual clips to piggyback the 8040 on it, pretty similar to John's setup (and yes, the lyres are worlds better than the hoops). The whole thing even fits into a mono rycote if you're not looking at using it in strong wind, i used a kit 3 when recording in Oman in November and it worked fine except on one occasion at the beach when there was massive wind going on.

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by John Willett

the Neumann KK 120 *is* and the new KM-A (analogue version of the KM-D) is available at any moment

Apologies for the hijack - I now return you to your thread already in progress...

[John Willett]

For the record, here is my custom Rycote Lyre MS rig.

I originally bought the sstem with the standard hoops, but changed it to this because the Lyres are so very much better.

I did the same modification to an INV-7 mount for using the rig inside.

This rig also works for the MKH 8040 with KK120+KM-A, but in this case Rycote exchanged the Lyres for a slightly softer set.

This should also work for an MKH 30 + MKH 8040, but you are likely to need to add an XLR M to F barrel to make the 8040 longer otherwise the rear clip would be on the rubber of the XLR.

[LX3]

Ah John, those are two of the sexiest pictures I've seen here for a while.

I obviously need to get a grip...

[Jack W]

Hi John,

Thanks for posting the pictures. Are those the mkh30 & 40 in shot? Do you have have any side angle shots of the rycote with the with the windjammer on? and would you mind posting please.

I'm interested in purchasing the MKH 30 & 50 with rycote and can't decide if the whole lot would be too large and intrusive for general atmosphere and crowd recording.


Thanks,

Jack

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Jack W

Hi John,

Thanks for posting the pictures. Are those the mkh30 & 40 in shot? Do you have have any side angle shots of the rycote with the with the windjammer on? and would you mind posting please.

I'm interested in purchasing the MKH 30 & 50 with rycote and can't decide if the whole lot would be too large and intrusive for general atmosphere and crowd recording.

Hi Jack,

Yes - its the 30 and 40 (I bought them in 1986) and the 50 would be the same size.

I actually took the photo originally to show to Rycote to show how my set-up was better than the one they had as standard for the 30.40 - they now offer this as standard (I think) as I saw it on show at the Rycote Open Day last month.

Send me a PM with your e-mail - I will have to take a special photo side-on and it's easier to send it by e-mail than uploading it and posting.

Cheers.

John

[Gilesy]

Hi. I saw this thread some time ago but had a divil of a job getting all the parts of my MS stereo setup together. I won't go into the dreary details of the supply chain but I now have a MS stereo setup using a MKH 8040 for the mid and a KM-A (pre-production) + KK120(nx) for the side. This is all mounted on a custom Rycote shockmount with stereo windshield (thanks to John Willett's design and construction!)

Microphone experts, enthusiasts, and pedants alike will point out that the MKH 8040 and the KM-A 120 are very different mics. The MKH 8000 series are RF condensers, equalised in the capsule to boost the low frequencies and give a very flat response, even at 1m. The Neumann mic is a passive capsule, less responsive at the lower end... However, they seem to work well together and deliver similar gain levels, so no fiddling with settings on the SD 702t and no attenuation necessary...

I am really pleased with the stereo image and clean sound this gives me. I have been experimenting, recording ambient tracks for possible use as wallah in film post. Some of my field recordings using the MS setup may well make their way into the forthcoming audio event VARIABLE 4, in Dungeness, in May this year. See this link for a pic of the MS stereo kit in action... Variable 4

If I've uploaded the images properly, you will see that I've added the MZF Filter Module to the MKH 8040 as this allowed me to easily clipboth ends of the Sennheiser mic onto the Neumann. However, I arrived in Dungeness without the filter module and had left one of the double clips back at home in the box. No worries. The MKH 8040 is very small and light. It was clipped onto the Neumann and was very solid...

I have some picks of this setup with the hi-wind cover on somewhere, but I wont post them unless someone really wants to see them...

[Jack W]

Hi Gilesy,

A really interesting post. I'd love to know more about the Rycote set up if you don't mind, was it tricky to build? from the photo it looks as though you're using several different parts to build the rig.

We could PM if you would like to talk in greater detail.

Best,

Jack

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Gilesy

Hi. I saw this thread some time ago but had a devil of a job getting all the parts of my MS stereo setup together. I won't go into the dreary details of the supply chain but I now have a MS stereo setup using a MKH 8040 for the mid and a KM-A (pre-production) + KK120(nx) for the side. This is all mounted on a custom Rycote shockmount with stereo windshield (thanks to John Willett's design and construction!)

<snip>

If I've uploaded the images properly, you will see that I've added the MZF Filter Module to the MKH 8040 as this allowed me to easily clipboth ends of the Sennheiser mic onto the Neumann. However, I arrived in Dungeness without the filter module and had left one of the double clips back at home in the box. No worries. The MKH 8040 is very small and light. It was clipped onto the Neumann and was very solid...

Hi Giles - great post - but, from the pics it looks as if the fig-8's positive lobe is pointing to the right instead of to the left - so you could have left/right reversed if you are not careful.

Originally Posted by Jack W

Hi Gilesy,

A really interesting post. I'd love to know more about the Rycote set up if you don't mind, was it tricky to build? from the photo it looks as though you're using several different parts to build the rig.

We could PM if you would like to talk in greater detail.

The Rycote MS design was mine after I experimented with Rycote bits to use the Lyre suspensions with my MKH 30/40 rig.

Rycote will supply the suspension as pictured and you don't have to make it up yourself - just tell them the mics and tell them it is the John Willett MS Lyre version you want.

Or give me a shout if you want more details.

[LX3]

Damn, that's spooky... No sooner do I start thinking again about the M-S setup I've been wanting to build than this thread resurrects itself.

Gilesy, your set up is exactly what I was working on in my head about 20 minutes ago. Looks fantastic.

John, maybe Sennheiser should market this as a kit, with all the Rycote bits included. Or perhaps wait for the MKH8000 fig-8 to come along.

How is that coming along btw?

[edit - ah, JW, just read your post... good to know Rycote can supply that as a set.]

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by LX3

John, maybe Sennheiser should market this as a kit, with all the Rycote bits included. Or perhaps wait for the MKH8000 fig-8 to come along.

How is that coming along btw?

As I am not employed by Sennheiser (anymore) I do not know the current situation. The last time I checked, the official position was that the MKH 8030 fig-8 is definitely in the plan but there is no immediate release date scheduled.

The Neumann 120 fig-8 is a great alternative in the meantime and as both the Neumann KK 120 and Sennheiser MKH 8000 series have both analogue and AES42 digital options it gives great flexibility if you want to go analogue now and leave the door open to go AES42 digital at a later date.

The Neumann KK120 fig-8 *is* a symmetrical capsule acoustically (the front plate is not active like the MKH 8000 series, but is passive to keep the acoustic properties identical both sides of the diaphragm so the polar patten is the same both sides).

I *can* supply all these mics (and other makes), by the way, as I am now an equipment supplier as well as a consultant and location recording unit

[Petrus]

I have used some BlueTack and gaffer tape to stick mics together for MS. Works great, cheap... Good enough at least for testing before getting those fancy clips.

(Have 8040, waiting for 8030...)

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hi everyone. Well, I have been using my mics for a while now and have gotten some really nice recordings. However, I have decided that I prefer the sound of the MKH8040 to the MKH40 and I want to make my main stereo pair 8000 series. I REALLY wish there was an 8030 available.

Now I am trying to decide between two 8040's or the various Neumann/schoeps etc.

What figure-8 microphone would you recommend to most closely match the sound of a 8040?

I am also trying to figure out how to stick two 8040's in a Rycote in XY or ORTF, anybody done that yet?

-Chris (The Original Poster )

[Petrus]

I was able to stick two 8040 inside a mid-size Rycote zeppelin which had the old style rubber ring mounts. Mics were angled out at about 110 degrees, maybe a bit more. Using the extension cable thingy (which I do not have) it would be possible to angle the mics in more for DIN even. As the mics are supported with one mount only and are almost touching the walls it can not be used while moving, strictly stationary only.

Using the same system I made some field recordings with 8020 AB pair, they were just facing the opposite directions. With the cables taped together in the middle it is stiffer and can be moved without mics scraping the zeppelin.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Hi everyone. Well, I have been using my mics for a while now and have gotten some really nice recordings. However, I have decided that I prefer the sound of the MKH8040 to the MKH40 and I want to make my main stereo pair 8000 series. I REALLY wish there was an 8030 available.

Now I am trying to decide between two 8040's or the various Neumann/schoeps etc.

What figure-8 microphone would you recommend to most closely match the sound of a 8040?

I am also trying to figure out how to stick two 8040's in a Rycote in XY or ORTF, anybody done that yet?

-Chris (The Original Poster )

Rycote do a Stereo Ball Gag for a pair of 8040 heads on remote cables - ring Rycote and they will conform if it can do ORTF in there (certainly XY works).

It's the same one that they do for the similar sized Schoeps heads.

For a fig-8.

I know some people are using the new Neumann KK120 fig-8 head with the KM-A module with the MKH 8040 - same Nextel finish as well.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Thanks John, I'll ask them about that.

Without sparking a huge debate, would you rather use 2x8040 in XY or 8040+ KK12/mkh30 MS for sticking in front of a band of village singers/drummers? (Not considering environmental factors)

Difficult to say for sure I know, but just kind of had to ask..

-Chris

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Without sparking a huge debate, would you rather use 2x8040 in XY or 8040+ KK12/mkh30 MS for sticking in front of a band of village singers/drummers? (Not considering environmental factors)

If it was indoors, I would probably use the ORTF MKH 8040s or a pair of diffuse-field omnis in a Jecklin or Schneiser disk.

If it was outdoors I would go for the MS set-up as it's far easier to windshield.

I have the 8040 stereoset, as well as the MKH 30/40 and a Rycote stereo basket windshield.

[mgoorevich]

I use MKH30 with MKH8040 for 2 years now.
For mid I tried almost all line of Sennheiser MKH series incl. 416, 60, 50.
But the combo MKH30/8040 is the best for me for recording atmos, room tones, quite effects, nature.
Advantages:
1. Very neutral and natural sound.
2. Super low self noise - you can use it for dead quite winter forests or room tones.
3. Great frequency response - the sub low and bass you get will blow your mind!
4. Small.
5. It's Sennheiser and I rely on them.

Cons:
1. Like with all MS or any stereo what you hear in the headphones is different in the studio. But with this configuration I often find myself lightly tweaking the low end separately for Mid and for Side mic. And it varies from sound to sound. Also because the sound of MKH8040 is more open, I find myself decreasing an MKH30 by about 40% to match the whole stereo image and feel.
But they do pair nice in the end. They just have different characters a bit.
Thus many folks expect MKH8030 to come...
2. You must have a decent Rycote holder and a mic stand.
I cannot manage to hold it without hearing my blood running through the veins.
But seriously if you are recording some quite atmos you must have a stand. I did well without stand with MKH60 and 50 though.
3. Not a real one... but I have a stereo pair of MKH8040 so when I compare some recording XY or ORTF or AB with two MKH8040...well I don't want to go back to MS (any MS). But I always came back cause it's compact.

Conclusion:
Go for it. But you need to invest in a good Rycote holder and zeppelin.
Don't forget about the stand too.

[cherryfields]

Originally Posted by mgoorevich

I use MKH30 with MKH8040 for 2 years now.
For mid I tried almost all line of Sennheiser MKH series incl. 416, 60, 50.
But the combo MKH30/8040 is the best for me for recording atmos, room tones, quite effects, nature.
Advantages:
1. Very neutral and natural sound.
2. Super low self noise - you can use it for dead quite winter forests or room tones.
3. Great frequency response - the sub low and bass you get will blow your mind!
4. Small.
5. It's Sennheiser and I rely on them.

Cons:
1. Like with all MS or any stereo what you hear in the headphones is different in the studio. But with this configuration I often find myself lightly tweaking the low end separately for Mid and for Side mic. And it varies from sound to sound. Also because the sound of MKH8040 is more open, I find myself decreasing an MKH30 by about 40% to match the whole stereo image and feel.
But they do pair nice in the end. They just have different characters a bit.
Thus many folks expect MKH8030 to come...
2. You must have a decent Rycote holder and a mic stand.
I cannot manage to hold it without hearing my blood running through the veins.
But seriously if you are recording some quite atmos you must have a stand. I did well without stand with MKH60 and 50 though.
3. Not a real one... but I have a stereo pair of MKH8040 so when I compare some recording XY or ORTF or AB with two MKH8040...well I don't want to go back to MS (any MS). But I always came back cause it's compact.

Conclusion:
Go for it. But you need to invest in a good Rycote holder and zeppelin.
Don't forget about the stand too.

Hi I was just about to order a Sennheiser MKH30 / MKH50 plus a Cinela Z-MKH-MS when I read this thread.

As I am more or less into recording the same stuff atmos, room tones, quite effects, nature perhaps I should go for the 30/8040 instead instead of 30/50

What is the biggest pro to get the 8040 option in your opinion?

Have you tried the Cinela windshield stuff? is it as good as it cost compared to Rycote as I really would like to make the kit as small as possible

cheers / Mike

[Nityananda_SCSM]

MKH 8040 + MKH 30 Mid/Side

Well I guess I should update the forum and explain that I've been using the MKH 8040 Mid and MKH 30 Side in a Rycote stereo windshield (with special invision mounts for extra protection from low freq noises) for about 6 months now and I LOVE IT!!!

I mean, I've spent so much time and money looking for a kit that finally meets my needs:

1. First-class sound, smooth, warm, full, detailed, just pleasant and juicy on the ears while still retaining the most detail I've heard in a mic yet.
2. Sounds great when faced with harsh, bright, "pingy" etc. high pitched sounds , especially the MKH 8040. This is the main reason that I bought into the MKH series to begin with years ago. And now I have used the MKH40/30 set and I have to say that I prefer the MKH 8040 being the mid specifically for this reason. Not that the MKH 40 was harsh, but it wasn't as pretty as the 8040. The 8040 actually has a bump in the high freq response, (as opposed to the MKH40's ruler-flat response) but even still it just soaks up the highs really nicely without sounding fatiguing, etc.
3. Both are highly resistant to humidity, radio interference, heat, dust, etc. More so then any other high end mics I know of except for maybe DPA (Schoeps Neumann etc. don't come close)
4. Light and compact. Being a MID/SIDE setup is really nice in the Rycote blimp. I just stick it somewhere that sounds good, point the blimp in the right direction and i'm setup in seconds, as opposed to fiddling around with ORTF multiple mics on a seperate bar etc etc.

Other reasons too but those being my main factors. Some of my best sounding recordings have been recently with my 8040/30/rycoteM+S rig as a stereo ensemble pair and a single DPA omni lavalier on the lead singer. The "reach" of the pair is impressive, pulling out the bass+high sounds very clearly even though setup at a distance. Hard to describe but it sounds better then when I would mic everything up individually before.

Anyway I'm very happy and would recommend the MKH30+MKH40+Rycote to anyone on the board. Just be sure to get the custom Invision shockmount from Rycote, if you ask for Simon he can set you up. It really is needed for the extra bass sensitivity of the 8040. Oh, I also bought the filter capsule for the 8040 to roll off everything below 10hz at the recommendation of Glen Trew at TrewAudio, that really helped also.


OK now that I've written all this this is going to sound like an add but BY THE WAY I've got a camera-man gig on a documentary in India this Febuary and I'm selling my rig to buy a Cooke 18-100 zoom lens. If anyone is interested I'll be in USA until January 15th then I'll be in England Jan 15 - Feb 15th, if you want to purchase my rig from me. I'll also consider trades if you have lenses or cinematography equipment!


MKH 8040 + MKH 30 + Rycote Stereo Windshield/Decoupler/Custom Invision shock mounts etc.
Everything is in mint condition and the mics are still under their 2yr warranty.
I'm leaving soon so if I can sell before I go I'll sell for a good price: $2700 everything included (not including the filter module, if you want that add $420 it's expensive!)
Your saving about $1000 from the USA price of the mics and the Rycote rig all together. I also do have my MKH40 for sale for $950 if anyone is interested in that. LINK TO CLASSIFIEDS ADD

Anyway really in an unbaised way I recommend these mics to anyone looking for a high quality portable setup, I did a helluva lot of testing and research before finally finding these babies, and whenever I get back into paid sound gigs I'll be buying them again.

-Chris

[RobAnderson]

Hi John

I was hoping you might know the answer to this:

Is the MKH30 a single diaphragm design like the KM120?

Thanks!

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Is the MKH30 a single diaphragm design like the KM120?

John is definitely the expert on this whole subject. Waiting for his definite answer, I can fill in what I know for certain.

The MKH30 is definitely a single diaphragm mic. It sure looks totally symmetrical on both sides, the diaphragm is situated in the middle between two same looking backplates ( I have looked ) . The polar diagram is totally symmetrical between "back" and "front" , this in contrast to some other figure 8 mics. It works on a different electrical principle from the KM120 as it is RF mic ( the KM 120 is a more traditional condensor ) . Soundwise this difference does not matter to us users, but it gives the KMH mics an edge in moist outside weather where they keep on working where a normal condensor might not. One of the reason why you often find them used in film recording.

// Gunnar

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Hi John

I was hoping you might know the answer to this:

Is the MKH30 a single diaphragm design like the KM120?

Thanks!

Yes - the MKH 30 is single-diaphragm and fully symmetrical both electrically and acoustically.

The Neumann 120 is single-diaphragm and symmetrical acoustically (the front plate is for acoustics and is not active like in the MKH 30).

The only other single diaphragm condenser fig-8s I know are the Schoeps and MBHO, but these don't have a front plate as far as I know.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[mgoorevich]

Originally Posted by cherryfields

Hi I was just about to order a Sennheiser MKH30 / MKH50 plus a Cinela Z-MKH-MS when I read this thread.

As I am more or less into recording the same stuff atmos, room tones, quite effects, nature perhaps I should go for the 30/8040 instead instead of 30/50

What is the biggest pro to get the 8040 option in your opinion?

Have you tried the Cinela windshield stuff? is it as good as it cost compared to Rycote as I really would like to make the kit as small as possible

cheers / Mike

MKH8040 is smaller in size and better sounding mic comparing to MKH classic series (MKH40 or 50).
To describe it in shirt...an MKH8040 sounds bigger and more natural at the same time.
It's also super quite mic!
The only disadvantage which is also a great pro is that this mic picking up very low frequencies with ease.
So look for intermodulation distortion when handling or using without the stand. It's simply impossible to handle it without hearing your arm's blood pumping.
From the other hand you can record some very low sfx with unbelievable results (like trains under the bridge, industrial sounds, thunderstorms e.t.c).
But again you should experiment. I recently was looking for some very specific "thin" sound but with big great quality (sounds weird ahh). So I made a pair Sanken CS1 with MKH30 with hi pass on.
Sounded like a mic was on camera and fitted very well production sound recorded.
So the variations are endless...