Classical sound reinforcement - active near field monitors

[Sevitzky]

I'm wondering if anybody has done small-scale sound reinforcement for classical gigs using studio-type signal chain? I'm trying to build an amplification system for my own playing on the upright bass.

For instance:

MHK 40
Grace single channel pre
EQ - TBA
Active near-field monitor - TBA


I'm specifically wondering about the speaker side of the action. Anyone ever used an active near field monitor to give a boost to the performer? Seems like a logical choice, but I've never seen or heard of it.

Most PA systems are concerned with putting out a huge amount of sound, but this would be mild, sublte, and ideally, nearly sonically invisible.

Thanks!

[NorseHorse]

Could you tell us a little more about what you play, where you play, and what you'd like to do.

I'd bet most standard stage gear IS up to the task of subtle amplification. I've seen it done really well with classical guitar. Subtlety is totally up to you. You control the volume knob, after all.

[hbphotoav]

I worked with Dave Pomeroy a couple of weeks ago at a Christmas benefit at a local church (EmmyLou Harris, John Prine and Riders In The Sky were a few of the guest artists) supplying the PA and tracking, and was most impressed with the SWR Workingman's 12 cabinet he brought along. From the "barely there" live reinforcement to the really clean DI we tracked (along with a Gefell on the speaker), we got gorgeous tones from two different electric basses (fretted and fretless) and his EUB. In the largely "acoustic" environs (no electric guitars or keyboards this year... at all... just guitars, fiddles, mandos, basses and Joey the CowPolka King's accordian), it worked great.

I don't know if a nearfield pressed into service on a stage would do as well (certainly wouldn't be a road-worthy) as something purpose-built. FWIW, the SWR rig he was playing that night would lead me to believe it wouldn't.

[fifthcircle]

I think you are going to have issues with a studio speaker filling a stage enough for even moderate amplification. Add to that the issues of directionality of a studio speaker and you may have some issues.

There are some great bass heads and speakers. One venue I work at uses an Acoustic Image rig for the jazz shows with great success. I also love the Walter Wood amps- especially the small ones.

I like the idea of a good front end, though. That alone wil make a huge difference. Be careful with standard studio condenser mics, though, as you may hit some feedback issues with them. Careful placement of the amp will be required. You may want to try something like the DPA compact mics- I would think that the 4099 would work very well in a setup like this.

--Ben

[Sevitzky]

I hear you on the SWR's. They have a great reputation and have sounded great when I use them.

I'll be doing solo classical upright playing, so actually I'm looking for natural clarity on the highs. Natural timbre above all else. More cello-like melodies than the type of playing you might associate with a bass. And I don't necessarily need to fill the hall evenly with the amplification - I've been playing acoustically for years, and I won't be any worse than that! In fact, I should have asked you guys what you'd use to amplify *cello*. There!

What I DON'T really need is a punchy low-end. Which in jazz, is so important since the bass is primarily a rhythm instrument.

Peronsally, I hate the sound of amps or PAs. To me, they're all testosterone. SPL linebackers.

Thanks for the tip on directionality, Ben. That would be an issue. Though I'm only looking to do this in a 200-400 seat theater. And yes, feedback was an issue for me, too:

I did a test with some mhk40's, M50's, DPA 4061's, KM84, CMC6/MK4's, in other words, all the usual suspects. What I found so interesting is that the close micing I had to use to avoid feedback (no way w/ the omni's, but I had to try!!!) was the dominant factor in the sound, far and above the type of mic. There's just so much boomy crap in the air at close proximity to the bass.

Originally, I was hoping to avoid EQ in the signal chain, but I think it's not possible. I haven't sat down to plot it out, but hopefully I can use a parametric unit to carefully notch out some of the worst offenders in the bottom and leave everything above 500hz untouched.

What do you guys think about a meyer sound cabinet?

[fifthcircle]

Meyer makes some great stuff. I use them on occasion with different rental companies. IMO, they have one of the better line arrays out there. Their PA cabs are also quite nice. They tend to be very heavy for the size, but the quality is definitely there.

If you can get away with a Parametric EQ, you'll likely get better results than with graphics. The ability to vary Q and get just the right frequency is good and I find that parametrics have fewer phase shift issues.

--Ben

[d_fu]

I've given a bit of support to a guitar in a symphony concert (Rodrigo - Concierto de Aranjuez) with a pair of Yamaha MS60. Worked very well, not at all boomy.

I've also used these as main PA speakers for a number of concerts of Indian Classical Music in medium-size halls, and they've never failed to sound just fine. I recently even used them as monitors in a recording session.

Worth a try, IMHO...

Daniel

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Sevitzky

I hear you on the SWR's. They have a great reputation and have sounded great when I use them.

I'll be doing solo classical upright playing, so actually I'm looking for natural clarity on the highs. Natural timbre above all else. More cello-like melodies than the type of playing you might associate with a bass. And I don't necessarily need to fill the hall evenly with the amplification - I've been playing acoustically for years, and I won't be any worse than that! In fact, I should have asked you guys what you'd use to amplify *cello*. There!
...
What do you guys think about a meyer sound cabinet?

Just about any "quality" main PA (or small amplified cabinet) can be EQ'd to just about any space. On the other hand, I've heard Meyer rigs sound real sucky... and other times heard them sound "musical" and quite hi fi. So... use your own ears with a selection of products. Finding a small Meyer box to "borrow" for a test will be difficult. They are not sold at retail (GC, Sam Ash, etc) and would be difficult to quickly repair/replace on the road. You should be able to run through Mackie or RCF with your mic of choice, a nice preamp and a bit of EQ, and have a nice, accurate, portable rig. Every room will be different... silver bullets are hard to find.

FWIW, the best cello sound I've gotten through a nice main PA (D&B T10 array rig in a 1200 seat room) was through a Sennheiser MKH8040 about 6" over the bridge, aimed slightly up toward the neck. It was part of a group that included drums, bass, electric and acoustic guitars, keys and vocals. Once we dialed out the resonant freq on the stage and dumped 6dB at 80Hz, the sound was sweet and full. I also think you could find a good position for a DPA 4099 if you take the time.

As to EQ... look online for a used Meyer CP-10. Sweet multiband parametric. See it at: CP-10 : Complementary Phase Parametric Equalizer

[hbphotoav]

Here's a photo of a DPA 4099 in place. Rich at Sonare recommends aiming it more up towards the fingers...

[JonesH]

I've done this successfully with both violin, flute and guitar. Used a standard Genelec 8040 as loudspeaker, some good cardioid for mic. Trick is to find a good distance with the mic so it doesn't give a sound that's too close and doesn't feed back either.

Granted, this has been in small to medium-sized halls, but I thought that using a single point source placed close to the player was nice when used at proper level so as to not distract from the original source.

[Sevitzky]

Ok, thanks guys.

Harry, I'm actually not planning to tune the system to the room I'm in. I would use the EQ to compensate for any egregious problems the compromises in mic placement, mainly the ringing tones in the low end (localized standing waves? whatever causes them..) . Idea being, the system just gives a little more presence to the natural sound.

If anyone had to ask me which parts of the recital were amplified or not: mission accomplished.

In other words, I'm not necessarily looking to make the sound BETTER, but just the most accurate blend with the acoustic sound (with all its potential problems, etc)

Anyway, all of this is really helpful, as I'm just bouncing ideas.... When this is up and running, I'll post results.

[DannyL]

I would not select "near field" monitors for sound reinforcement as SR is anything BUT near field. Near Field monitors are designed to work in an equilateral triangle with sides of 1 to 1.5 meters with the apexes being the speakers and the engineer's head. If you happen to be playing in a club that small, you certainly do not need sound reinforcement.

Danny

[wayne_irie]

Have you considered Aer amps? very natural and clean imo, with plenty of options input wise. most of them can be mounted on mic stands as well.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by DannyL

I would not select "near field" monitors for sound reinforcement as SR is anything BUT near field. Danny

I think many high-quality studio monitors are certainly up to the task. There may be better loudspeakers for the job as well, but most PA "boxes" detract much from from the performance than do nearfield-style studio monitors such as the Genelecs mentioned above in my experience.

[AlexK]

There is PLENTY of great PA out there, a lot of which can reach similar levels of performance to high-end monitoring.

Look at d&b (Q10, E9, or some of the wedges), Funktion One, and maybe the new Nexo PS range (although I find these a bit on the bright side).

I've heard PA speakers which I'd happily mix on.