Speakers for live piano performance

[Wolfbear]

I'm an amateur jazz pianist, and I want to be able to perform high-quality acoustic jazz using a portable keyboard. For example, I'd like to be able to play at local coffee houses and restaurants, most of which don't own a piano but would love to have live music. The keyboard I'm using is a Kawai MP8, which I think has an excellent "acoustic grand piano" sound (when I listen to it through headphones).

My question is, what speakers should I use for performing?

I've tried the typical keyboard amps that rock bands use (Hartke KM series, Roland KC series), but they don't come close to achieving the warm, realistic piano sound I'm looking for.

I'm sure I could get more accurate sound reproduction using home/studio monitors, but I'm worried that those will be (1) too near-field (not intended to be heard more than ~20 feet away) and (2) too fragile (not intended for being bumped into and tripped over and transported around).

So I think that leaves PA speakers. I just bought a pair of QSC K8 speakers, and they sound excellent above middle C but rather thin and muddled below middle C.

How can I do better?

[mralmostpopular]

You know what I have used that works pretty well? A Peavy bass amp. You can turn the lows down a little bit and it will give you a pretty strong sound that is loud enough, and you'll be able to feel it. The sound should be fairly warm, like you're talking about. That's if you want to stay with amps.

You can also go the PA route. There are several affordable portable PAs that people are using (Fender comes to mind). If you've got the budget, you can try one of the Bose systems too. You'll want to try out the one with the single sub.

The cheaper of the two solutions would be the amp. I really don't think you'd be disappointed. Bass amps are meant to be clean sounding and beefy.

[JoeDeF]

Originally Posted by Wolfbear

I'm an amateur jazz pianist, and I want to be able to perform high-quality acoustic jazz using a portable keyboard. For example, I'd like to be able to play at local coffee houses and restaurants, most of which don't own a piano but would love to have live music. The keyboard I'm using is a Kawai MP8, which I think has an excellent "acoustic grand piano" sound (when I listen to it through headphones).

My question is, what speakers should I use for performing?

I run the Ivory virtual instrument at most gigs where real pianos are not available. It is stereo, and I keep it adjusted to the player's perspective. That is to say, most of the bass comes from the left output, and most of the treble comes from the right output.

I then run a Mackie SRM 450 right behind me on my left (pointing towards the audience and just past me) for the left channel, and a Mackie SRM 350 on my right, for the right channel. Gives a pretty rich stereo sound, and I don't have to haul two SRM 450's around, since I don't need the bass frequencies on my right. The SRM 450 on the left has tons of bass, if I'm working without a bass player (I still use the Ivory piano sound to cover bass - I am a jazz pianist and hate the whole "fake keyboard walking bass" thing).

I get tons of compliments from other professional musicians about the quality of the piano sound. However, a lot of that is attributable to Ivory's incredible nuances and expressiveness.

I don't know if the MP8 has a similar stereo distribution, but if it does, a setup like this might work for you. The amount of nuance that the MP8 is capable of, I don't know....

Joe

[hbphotoav]

I do hifi PA work for several acoustic acts, and have, after a lot of research and ears-on tests, been running RCF ART 322A powered speakers as my main "small" rig for about three years now. Plenty of power, bi-amped, and this device makes use of a 2" HF driver. The main benefit is a lower crossover point (1.2kHz as opposed to 2.5-3.5kHz) which yields better power handling and a smoother upper midrange. The low end is useful to just below 100Hz, and, when I augment a pair or two with a pair of the 800w Mackie 18" powered subs, I'm good to 500 people or so. They are stellar as powered wedges as well.

Very musical, right out of the box. Slight bit of 400Hz coming off the back of the box (if you're using wedges) but easily EQ'd. FOH rarely requires much EQ... these folks did the OEM for both the original EON series for JBL and for the original Mackie SRM450. They know plastic speakers.

More info: http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library...groupId=216492

[M4-10]

Speaker placement is really important. If you aren't singing and are only amplifying the piano you have the bonus of being able to put your speaker or speakers behind you if that helps (and you won't need a monitor). For live two speakers really isn't about stereo, it's about coverage of the room. High frequencies are directional, and speakers must be on axis with your head (the performer <in the form of a monitor> and the audience).

For portability to coffee shops and restaurants, One or two 10" powered speakers on stands (see: speaker placement) are the way to go. I currently own two Mackie SRM45's and two Yorkville E160Ps. Both are meant to travel (unlike more fragile studio monitors) and give about 200 watts (way more than you'll need). They have speaker pole holes and are shaped to be used as floor monitors as well. You can pick up speakers like this on Craigslist for $300-400 each.

[mixedupsteve]

I have used many speakers and found EVs to be the most HIFI sounding. I have SX300s that I use on accoustic gigs and they're great sounding. I've heard the Bose unit at a bookstore singer songwriter event and I was impressed with the sound. It was just mono too.

[Dave Ferris]

I use the EV SXA 360s active speakers for my live Jazz trio/solo/quartet stuff. It's a 2 way, 12" and horn. In its class, weight/price, I think they are the best thing going. Expect to pay around $1600 for a new pair (they recently came down in price) I alternate between the Yamaha CP300 and the lighter P120 Digital piano. I've tried a lot of different speakers and keyboard amps---a few brands I've owned or tried:
Barbetta amps
JBL Eons 10"s & the 15"s
Mackie SM-450s and SM350s
Acoustic Image Coda/Corus/ and the new Ten2
The older QSC--the HPR 122i I think it was. Haven't tried the newer QSC K series--the 8", 10" or 12"s.

Without spending a lot more dough on something like Meyer, L'Acoustics or the EAW NT 26 series, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything that sounds has good although I have heard that the aforementioned RCF speakers sound very good too but I noticed they are 50 lbs. The Evs are only 35 lbs. When you're schlepping a pair for a stereo image, that's a huge weight difference.

Stay away from keyboard amps. They're fine for "rock keyboardists", but for a Jazz or Classical pianist trying to get a decent sound with a DP, they are very harsh and boxy. The best one is the Motion Sound stereo amp. I have the KP-200 and it's still harsh in most rooms. They have a newer one, the KP-500, heard it briefly at NAMM last year. It was a little better, I'd like to hear it again.

[rwhealey]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

I use the EV SXA 360s active speakers for my live Jazz trio/solo/quartet stuff. It's a 2 way, 12" and horn. In its class, weight/price, I think they are the best thing going. Expect to pay around $1600 for a new pair (they recently came down in price).

The SxA360 was discontinued on 1/1/10. I've heard from a dealer that EV will provide service for 5 years.

You might be able to get a pair really cheap.

[Dave Ferris]

Really?! I guess that explains the price drop the last year. I wonder what will replace it?
This is one of the best boxes they've ever made.

Thanks for the info rwhealy.

BTW, just got home yesterday after a week in Lake St. Louis and the Chesterfield area. Yikes it was cold for a few days there, good to get back here.

[rwhealey]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Really?! I guess that explains the price drop the last year. I wonder what will replace it?
This is one of the best boxes they've ever made.

Thanks for the info rwhealy.

BTW, just got home yesterday after a week in Lake St. Louis and the Chesterfield area. Yikes it was cold for a few days there, good to get back here.

I'm hoping for a ZxA3. I really like my Zx1s, and I hear really good things about the Zx3 and ZxA5. You visited at the wrong time! It went from 10 this morning to 45 or so in the evening...

[Jim vanBergen]

I have used the Tapco Thump TH-15 for this application (key reproduction) with excellent results. The EQ allowed the player the ideal balance.

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by rwhealey

I'm hoping for a ZxA3. I really like my Zx1s, and I hear really good things about the Zx3 and ZxA5. You visited at the wrong time! It went from 10 this morning to 45 or so in the evening...

Yeah I heard it warmed up a bit. I'm originally from St. Louis (Florissant/Ferguson area), came to LA in '79. My wife and I both have our family back there. I generally dig the people a lot more than Ca. --the weather is another thing though. We are very spoiled in that regard.

I'm going to NAMM tomorrow so I'll stop by the EV booth and see what's up for a SXA360 replacement. It's hard to get a straight answer there though, a lot people walking around with EV shirts but hard to find an informed employee . Last year I was inquiring about the ZXA5, I think by the tenth person I asked, I found someone that had actually heard of it. The company is too big with too many speakers.
It's almost next to impossible to hear any of their newer stuff in a music store out here.

[Wolfbear]

Thanks everyone! I'm glad to hear that others have found good results using only two speakers --- I was worried I would need a sub as well. It sounds like the solution is not EQing or adding a sub, but rather, returning/selling my current K8 speakers and buying a new pair.

Dave Ferris,

I see you live in Glendale... where would you go in L.A. to try out as many as possible of the speakers that were suggested? (I live in Pasadena and got my current K8s at the West L.A. Music in West L.A.)

Wolfbear

[AlexK]

I suspect the problem may not be with the QSCs - the K-series are IMO absolutely phenomenal speakers (I've used them quite a few times now) and I certainly have never found the low-end to be muddy (for a plastic speaker).

Are you using them in DEEP mode? Also, where are you placing them? Against a floor or wall, or worst of all in a corner is just going to make things worse...

[Dave Ferris]

I just purchased a pair of RCF TT08As for my digital piano and the sound is outstanding! I was able to sell my EV SXA360s to help offset the cost. The EVs sounded very good but these new RCF 's have even more detail and definition, less honkiness in the HF horn too.

I also bought the new Korg SV-1 73. Lightweight, great Rhodes and Wurlitzer sound in addition to very good sounding Acoustic pianos. Highly recommended from someone who is really picky.

@ wolfbear- I'm sorry I never addressed your question. It's really slim pickings here in LA as far as trying to find a MI music store to audition speakers. The GC are carrying the QSC K series now though.
I had to contact the RCF reps and drive my keyboard down to their location in Orange County and set up in their small office to hear my speakers. It was a major pia hassle but in the end worth it.

[once a roadie]

I've been through a bunch of speakers for keys / piano...

Older EV S100s = actually very nice, soft tweeter excellent stage sound, versatile

Older Big EVs = 15 inch two ways...cranked, but you needed to be 20 ft away to hear the sound

JBL Eon 15's = loud but again, you need to be about 20 ft away or all you hear is midrange mush

I'm lately convinced that 3way speakers are rightous for keys!

I would seriously check out the speakeasy gig rigs...

My current rig consists of a pair of Acme B1's (4 ohm) with crown power amp. If you can get a more hi-fi amp, do it. The B1s sound great - very balanced.

You could also try something like a fender super-sonic and a PA / keyboard amp combo...the tube amps will tend to add overtones to the digital pianos and you can balance this...of course this is a pain if you are a working musician.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Plenty of power, bi-amped, and this device makes use of a 2" HF driver. The main benefit is a lower crossover point (1.2kHz as opposed to 2.5-3.5kHz) which yields better power handling and a smoother upper midrange.

Harry,

a midrange unit typically handles way more power than a tweeter so likely the opposite is true.

Perhaps you were thinking in terms of power/energy response, iow. dispersion?


/Peter

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Harry,

a midrange unit typically handles way more power than a tweeter so likely the opposite is true.

Perhaps you were thinking in terms of power/energy response, iow. dispersion?


/Peter

In a 3-way device (mine are 15" cone low/6.5" cone, ferrofluid cooled, horn-loaded mid/1" HF compression driver, also on a horn) that is true. The mid driver handles from 500Hz to 2.5kHz, eating more power less efficiently (passive crossover) than the 2" device in the 2-way RCF, electronically crossed over at 1.2kHz. That it doesn't peak at a 2.5kHz crossover point (like the 12dB/octave mid/high split in the 3-way, and most other 12"/2-way boxes) smooths the upper mids and, because of its higher power rating, the precise matching of the HF power amp in the biamped amplifier section to its load, and a nice horn design... it simply sounds better, even loud, than just about any other sub-$1K box out there. And, having played them plenty loud a good number of times, and lost fewer HF diaphragms (0) than in the 3-ways (two) through the years... I guess I assumed they handled power better than the 1-inch devices.

But, I could be mistaken.

HB

[Randelph]

I've had good results with 2 different P.A.'s:

The Fender Passport PD-250 (now discontinued, don't know how the new ones compare). This is a stereo system that sounds like a hi-fidelity "jazz" speaker, doesn't have the harsh mid-range of a "rock" speaker. Have heard that the speakers were made by Bose- overall it sounds like a good quality home sound system more than a pa, love the sound, and of course it has a built-in mixer section. It only has 6.5" woofers though, so it's a bit limited on the low end.

Recently bought a Motion Sound KP-500sn. Love it. That it's one box, not 2, is a big plus. That it has (2) 12" speakers driven by 500 watts means I get a very full bottom end. With a second input channel, I can run a bass thru the other channel if needed.

Don't have other amps to compare it to, but for the acoustic piano on my Nord Stage, I find it very satisfying. It has a good 3 band eq that's very helpful, and overall, for organ, Rhodes, analog synth, it's a great amp.

And it's surprisingly lightweight given its size and shape. At under 50 pounds, and with good handles and casters, I find myself asking if it really is 50 pounds, it's reasonable to shleep around.

What I don't know is how good of a job it'd do in larger rooms with a large number of folks. It does well as a personal keyboard monitor sitting behind me that can be easily heard in small to medium sized rooms.