Snake Shopping

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by WVUtubadude

I am looking for an 8 channel snake with an XLR fantail and stage box. I have found several brands in my searches including EWI, Whirlwind, Pro Co, and Hosa. I am leaning towards EWI, however, it is my understanding that they use Chinese Neutrik knockoffs. Should that be a reason to pass over EWI?

Would I be better suited with Whirlwind or Pro Co, perhaps?

This will be for my recording rig, if that helps.

I use Conquest Sound snakes. I bought a couple 5 years ago and have never had a problem with them. I believe they use either Belden or Gepco cable and you have your choice of Neutrik or Switchcraft XLR's. They are not quite as pricey as Whirlwind but a bit more than Hosa.

[mixedupsteve]

I have 2 EWI snakes both over 2 years old. They are decent quality but not tour quality. So it depends on how harsh your environment is. The connectors aren't Neutrik but the build quality is real good.

[bishopthomas]

If you can afford the Whirlwind (especially the Mini 12) go for it. Otherwise, for the money, you can't beat EWI.

[sonare]

I just sold my 8-ch Mogami and am ordering 2 Instasnakes. Redco has what is needed (lengths of shielded CAT5 with Ethercons on the ends plus the the baluns) and can work with you on price.

Rich

[WVUtubadude]

So I looked at the Instasnakes. Do the send and receive units come together or do I have to buy each $150 box separately?

And my environment will be bar recording at its worst, and setting up in a nice auditorium at best.

[sonare]

Each seller has different prices-- Sewell Direct sells pairs-- others are separate but you will get your best price by contacting the seller and tell them what you need.

Rich

[mpdonahue]

Just let me start off by saying that Cat5/6 shielded cable is a great way to move digital stuff around. I have installed runs in about a dozen different concert halls around the world and use them regularly.
WRT the insta-snake stuff, I have a couple of concerns that keep me from using if for microphone level signals, the biggest being the pairs are not individually shielded and the system is a common ground. Also, the connectors are designed for 5v signaling, not the millivolt levels coming off microphones. Would you really trust the tab on a CAT5 connector for the grounding of your complete system?
Also, it seems to me that these devices could be made from off the shelf parts for about $16 and 15 minutes of soldering.
All the best,
-mark
p.s. IOFast has pre-made lengths of shielded CAT6 for prices that can not be beat.

[sonare]

Mark,

All the things you mentioned caused me to hesitate also-- but after talking with Brian Peters in NY about his experiences both here and in Europe with the InstaSnake and after talking with ETS I decided to take the plunge. If it is not suitable I'll say so on this forum.

Rich

[WVUtubadude]

Can anyone point me to a store that sells Conquest Sound products? Their website and google have both proven to be useless.

[Remoteness]

Useless in what way?
I don't use them, but they seem to have everything spelled out in their website.

Here's Conquest Sound's link...
CONQUEST SOUND USA - Audio Cables & Wiring Products

[WVUtubadude]

Useless in that they give means to become a dealer, but not how to find a dealer.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by WVUtubadude

Useless in that they give means to become a dealer, but not how to find a dealer.

Perhaps that should tell you something?

...or, maybe not.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

WRT the insta-snake stuff, I have a couple of concerns that keep me from using if for microphone level signals, the biggest being the pairs are not individually shielded and the system is a common ground. Also, the connectors are designed for 5v signaling, not the millivolt levels coming off microphones. Would you really trust the tab on a CAT5 connector for the grounding of your complete system?
Also, it seems to me that these devices could be made from off the shelf parts for about $16 and 15 minutes of soldering.
All the best,

I have used the INSTASNAKE units for about 12 months and have had no issues with an overall screen to the cable. However, I must admit that I have not been in any RF hostile venues. Carrying 60m of cat5 is much easier on my back than multi cable.

I do agree that they are quite expensive for what is included - so will make my own in the event that I need to run additional channels.

Larry

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by WVUtubadude

Useless in that they give means to become a dealer, but not how to find a dealer.

I just Googled Conquest Snake and a bunch came up including one on ebay and several dealers.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We were doing concert sound for a group and there main feed to the sound board was with a CAT-5 Cable with digital interfaces on both ends. Before the concert started some older person wheeled their wheel chair over the CAT-5 Cable that was taped down to the carpeting. They weighed about 350 pounds and with the weight of their wheel chair it was probably more like 400 pounds. After they rolled over the CAT-5 cable NOTHING was coming from the stage. Luckily the touring group had another CAT-5 Cable and we restrung it. That little episode was very telling and I have never wanted to use digital snakes since. We also had the same thing happen with a fiber optic cable but in that instance the group did not have a spare so we had to run a 24 pair snake. All this digital stuff is GREAT except that a lot of it is not build or designed for "real world" use.

YMMV

[mpdonahue]

To be 100% honest, the biggest issue is getting the correct cable for the job and not just what the dealer suggests.
The thing about CAT 5 cabling is that there are MANY different types and specifications to consider.
Solid conductor or stranded patch cable?
Wire guage- 24, 26 or 28 ga
Cat 5, Cat 5e, Cat 6, Cat 6a, CAT 7?
Unshielded (UTP), Overall Shielded (STP), of Individually Shielded pairs (SSTP)
Jacketing material-Plenum rated, PVC or rubberized?
Connectors-Shielded or unshielded, booted or molded? Neutricon?

Choosing a network cable is like choosing a microphone snake. There are literally hundreds of options.
The thing about category cabling is that it is so cheap that in many situations it is cheaper to abandon it in place rather than remove it. For example, I'm doing three records with an orchestra this season and it cost me $150 in materials to install 24 channels of Cat 6 (SSTP) for 96k AES from the roof to the green room (About a 300' run). The stagehand bill to remove it will be about $600, (4 men/4 hours) so we leave it there for future use.

All the best,
-mark

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

We were doing concert sound for a group and there main feed to the sound board was with a CAT-5 Cable with digital interfaces on both ends. Before the concert started some older person wheeled their wheel chair over the CAT-5 Cable that was taped down to the carpeting. They weighed about 350 pounds and with the weight of their wheel chair it was probably more like 400 pounds. After they rolled over the CAT-5 cable NOTHING was coming from the stage. Luckily the touring group had another CAT-5 Cable and we restrung it. That little episode was very telling and I have never wanted to use digital snakes since. We also had the same thing happen with a fiber optic cable but in that instance the group did not have a spare so we had to run a 24 pair snake. All this digital stuff is GREAT except that a lot of it is not build or designed for "real world" use.

YMMV

Selecting the right cable and running it properly is critical no matter what type it is. A cheap copper snake could have just as easily been damaged by that joy rider. Sure, you probably would have just lost some channels, but what if they were channels you needed? As for placement, digital snakes are much cheaper, allowing you to buy longer runs (and backups) much easier. Since you have the extra cable, why not take the time to run it away from the people with feets and wheels? And cable ramps where it HAS to cross their paths.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Selecting the right cable and running it properly is critical no matter what type it is. A cheap copper snake could have just as easily been damaged by that joy rider. Sure, you probably would have just lost some channels, but what if they were channels you needed? As for placement, digital snakes are much cheaper, allowing you to buy longer runs (and backups) much easier. Since you have the extra cable, why not take the time to run it away from the people with feets and wheels? And cable ramps where it HAS to cross their paths.

I agree with you 100% but when the group shows up with 75 feet of CAT-5 and the mixing console is 60 feet from the stage you do what you have to. Also the venue did not have any cable ramps. In a "perfect world" with lots of equipment and unlimited amounts of money anything is possible. In the real world I was working in things were sometimes not so easy.

[bishopthomas]

Oh yeah, I knew you were not the one to blame. I was just trying to convince you to not give up on digital snakes because of a couple of bad experiences that could have easily been avoided by taking the same precautions that should have been taken while using copper cable. 75 feet of Cat5? What's the point?

Hey, new smilies!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Oh yeah, I knew you were not the one to blame. I was just trying to convince you to not give up on digital snakes because of a couple of bad experiences that could have easily been avoided by taking the same precautions that should have been taken while using copper cable. 75 feet of Cat5? What's the point?

Hey, new smilies!

Actually I have been looking at some digital snakes to ease setups and tear down times and cut the weight. Any really good ones you have seen? or used?

I see now there are armored fiber optic snakes and thick rubber coated CAT-5 cables so my "problems" may have been fixed by the moving on of technology. Plus I now see that Neutrik makes a whole lot of industrial strength connectors. It is a brave new world out there.

[fredlesk]

ProAudioLa hooked me up with a really good Mogami 8 channel snake with a fan tail, stage box and everything. You should contact them. They're really good to work with. The pricing is good too and you can customize it whatever way you want. If it's for recording, I wouldn't skimp out on quality. Just my .02

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Actually I have been looking at some digital snakes to ease setups and tear down times and cut the weight. Any really good ones you have seen? or used?

I see now there are armored fiber optic snakes and thick rubber coated CAT-5 cables so my "problems" may have been fixed by the moving on of technology. Plus I now see that Neutrik makes a whole lot of industrial strength connectors. It is a brave new world out there.

Oh, good. You said earlier that you've never wanted to use digital snakes since, so I was afraid that you were basing that off those couple of instances. I've never used any of the standalone digital snakes, only the ones that come with the consoles. A friend has the Allen & Heath iLive and I use it (and run the Ethernet "snake") quite often. It's a 300' heavily jacketed cable for I think around $2-300. (PM me if you want a real price; I'm a CBI dealer.) I don't know a whole lot about the different offerings, but it seems like many (most) digital snakes have preamps before the conversion, so I'm wondering if that is necessary. In which case you're stuck with certain preamps, or at least stacking pres. But someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[KHilbert]

Those conquest snakes looks exactly like the EWI snakes I have. Same sourcing I bet.

[Chunky But Funky]

I've had good luck with Carvin gear over the years. Their 8 channel snake uses premium Neutrik connectors.

Otherwise, I've been looking at Redco and Instasnakes myself.

Doug

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

We were doing concert sound for a group and there main feed to the sound board was with a CAT-5 Cable with digital interfaces on both ends. Before the concert started some older person wheeled their wheel chair over the CAT-5 Cable that was taped down to the carpeting. They weighed about 350 pounds and with the weight of their wheel chair it was probably more like 400 pounds. After they rolled over the CAT-5 cable NOTHING was coming from the stage. Luckily the touring group had another CAT-5 Cable and we restrung it. That little episode was very telling and I have never wanted to use digital snakes since. We also had the same thing happen with a fiber optic cable but in that instance the group did not have a spare so we had to run a 24 pair snake. All this digital stuff is GREAT except that a lot of it is not build or designed for "real world" use.

YMMV

This is why you have a redundant cable taking a completely separate path so that when one cable fails you have a back up that you can rely on. People think they can just run all cables as they would an analogue multicore but in reality that just leads to problems. Ive seen plenty of 'redundant' cables that run right next to main cable (even in the same multi cable) and that is when they both fail at the same time leaving you with no backup.

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

In a "perfect world" with lots of equipment and unlimited amounts of money anything is possible. In the real world I was working in things were sometimes not so easy.

Sad to say many of these 'new' snake systems just are not designed for real world conditions. I say 'new' because many of them are so outdated before they even come out. When technology can no longer service the communications industry why do manufactures think it would be a good idea to put it into audio application with very tough environments?

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Actually I have been looking at some digital snakes to ease setups and tear down times and cut the weight. Any really good ones you have seen? or used?

I see now there are armored fiber optic snakes and thick rubber coated CAT-5 cables so my "problems" may have been fixed by the moving on of technology. Plus I now see that Neutrik makes a whole lot of industrial strength connectors. It is a brave new world out there.

The cable may be lighter but when you have to have twice as much cable (or more) and you are laying it taking different paths you won't cut your setup time down.

No matter what protection or armor these cables have you can never solve the problem if you still only have a single cable in use.

All that said i do think a digital snakes with digital consoles are the best way to go but you have to solve the problems first in a tough environment.

[jwgreen6]

My band has a 24x4 ProCo snake that's at least 10 years old. In August 2009, we had a number of problems with the snake. It turned out that 3 of the 4 TRS return plugs were broken, causing ground loop problems. Some of the stage box XLR's were missing the lock release and a couple of channels did not work.

Living in Fort Wayne has a few advantages. One is it's the home of Sweetwater Sound. Second, we're only a couple of hours from ProCo's headquarters in Kalamazoo, MI.

The snake was dropped off at Sweetwater Monday afternoon to see what they could do with it. They took one look at it and immediately shipped it to ProCo that same Monday. I called ProCo to let them know the issues I had with the snake and to expect it soon for repairs. I also stated my band has a gig coming up Friday and need it back asap. I asked them about the warranty and I was told "As long as we made it, we'll take care of it regardless of how old it is."

Not only did ProCo replace all 4 TRS plugs, they replaced most, if not all, XLR sockets on the stage box! By the way, I had the snake back in my hands Wednesday afternoon. Dropped off at Sweetwater Monday and returned to Sweetwater fully repaired 48 hours later. Now THAT'S service.

I have not experienced such service from any other company, so I may be a little biased.

If you need a multi-channel analog snake and value top-flight customer service, give ProCo a call. I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Kudos to Sweetwater, too, for their first-class service.

[talbe1019]

Conquest is very similar to Redco. They use Gepco cable and you get your chioce of Switchcraft or Neutrik connectors. They are made to order in the USA. If I am not mistaken EWI is made in South Korea and uses look alike Neutrik connectors. I am not saying that the EWI snake is not good, but definitely not the same source as EWI, and I believe the build quality is better. That said, the EWI snake price is great for what you get.

Originally Posted by KHilbert

Those conquest snakes looks exactly like the EWI snakes I have. Same sourcing I bet.

[Corran]

After ordering a few things made from EWI, I liked the quality and decided to completely revamp my cables. To date I have ordered two snakes, a ton of TRS cables and almost 1000 ft. of XLR cables from them. Not a single one of them has had a problem. They are also very sturdy and feel like they are going to last forever. I can't say the same about anything else I've gotten by ProCo, my previous choice for cabling. Their mic cables lasted a bit longer than the cheapest off-brand stuff but it broke nevertheless.

Their warranty sounds excellent, but I haven't had a chance to call about the cables I've retired from service. However, why would I want new warranty cables that are just going to fail after a bit of use at an important gig anyway?

[dougm]

We have 2 Whirlwind 9 channel boxes, 50' each, and 1 EWI 8 channel unit.

The Whirlwind is built better, but that blue cable they use is stiff.

The EWI works fine and the cable lays flat and coils easily. On the EWI box, one of the XLRs has one of the pins metal liner pushed in. No idea if it came that way, became that way, or was caused by use.

Doug