Orchestra + Soloist

[chris319]

Given an orchestra and a violin soloist who is playing downstage of the orchestra, and using an ORTF pair for the orchestra, how would you mic the soloist? My concern is that without a spot mic the soloist will sound off mic. I'm thinking the spot mic should pick up as little of the orchestra as possible. I have thought about a clip-on instrument mic and also about putting a lapel mic directly on the player. The venue will be a live concert.

[joelpatterson]

Erm... clip on mic for a violin soloist? Maybe for an outdoor bluegrass festival... for something classical in a nice hall, you want a "hally" violin sound, don't you? Why not position some kind of nice LDC tube eight or ten feet out from her/him/it?

It'll be somewhere between a struggle and a challenge to mix it into the ORTF in the proper scale, but it wouldn't be a nightmare. Better yet, ring the stage with sets of matching stereo mics and be able to pick/choose at your leisure during mixdown.

Above all, don't worry about it.

[chris319]

I just had a crazy idea, but you know me, I'm full of crazy ideas.

Run a lapel mic up the soloist's left sleeve and clip it to their shirt/coat cuff.

I would want to test this first.

[fifthcircle]

Yes, the soloist will sound off mic if you don't put something out there. You'll also feel the image pull off to one side as well. I would recommend a solo mic to help both of those issues.

That being said, I don't think I could imagine anything worse than using a lav mic except perhaps a wireless lav mic. Use a decent quality condenser or ribbon on a stand in front of the player. There are a ton of ways you could mic this, but in the end, I'd sugges keeping it low profile. You don't want to bother the soloist or distract the audience.

--Ben

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Yes, the soloist will sound off mic if you don't put something out there. You'll also feel the image pull off to one side as well. I would recommend a solo mic to help both of those issues.

That being said, I don't think I could imagine anything worse than using a lav mic except perhaps a wireless lav mic. Use a decent quality condenser or ribbon on a stand in front of the player. There are a ton of ways you could mic this, but in the end, I'd sugges keeping it low profile. You don't want to bother the soloist or distract the audience.

--Ben

Agree fully with Ben’s comments. Do NOT use a lav mike. All you need is a little of the spot to help positioning soloist. I always try to keep a similar distance for the spot as the mains - otherwise there are perspective problems.

Larry

[Roland]

Ben is spot on here, you need a decent condensor or ribbon. For the most unobtrusive the Schoeps do a long extension arm that you can mount one of their small capsules on, alternatively (if you can't hang) you are going to be using a stand with a mic. Various options to consider should be Sennheiser 8040, Schoeps Mk4, Neumann KM140, Royer 121 etc.

Regards


Roland

[d_fu]

Depending on where and how you've positioned a stand for the ORTF, how about putting the spot on the same stand, facing away from the orchestra towards the soloist?

[dbaudio]

You don't state the genre of the music. I will assume that this is a standard repertoire classical violin solo with a symphonic orchestra.

First and foremost, there are no rules! While a good, small condenser or ribbon mic is a good choice for a spot mic, I and many others have also used lavaliere mics with great success, particularly for televised events where a mic on a stand might not be an option because of picture concerns. For the "Silk Road" concerts (live sound reinforcement), Yo Yo Ma and the other string players use wireless lavs.

I have used lavs, both clipped to a players jacket or shirt collar, and clipped onto the instrument itself. It is not the prettiest sound, but for a spot mic, sometimes it gives just enough detail to work nicely with the overall stereo pair.

I have also used a lav in combination with a more conventional microphone.

Fo the most part, I do use a small capsule condenser mic (either flown above or on a stand) rather than a lavaliere. I use a variety of Schoeps, or Neumann mics for spot mics. I vacillate between cardiod, subcardiod, and omni patterns for spot mics. The choice is dependent any number of factors, most importantly, the amount of isolation I need.

My colleagues use the same, along with DPA and a variety of ribbon mics.

Add the spot mic to your overall stereo pair, "to taste". You will have to experiment to find the best placement along with the appropriate amount needed.

Hopefully, you will have time during a rehearsal to experiment. Don't worry about making a mistake. It is the best way to learn.

But again, there are no hard and fast rules. There are better choices, but there is no perfect choice, and there are certainly no wrong choices. Each circumstance may require a different approach. That's what keeps it interesting!

Good luck.

[chris319]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Depending on where and how you've positioned a stand for the ORTF, how about putting the spot on the same stand, facing away from the orchestra towards the soloist?

That would put the spot mic behind the soloist unless I put the ORTF pair off the lip of the stage.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by chris319

That would put the spot mic behind the soloist unless I put the ORTF pair off the lip of the stage.

I know - depending on the distance and the height of the solo mic, that may not be a huge problem. Really depends on the specific setup. Just an idea that I might consider in such a situation.

[chris319]

One idea is to put the spot mic behind the soloist pointing downstage, over the soloist's shoulder. A cardioid mic would suppress the orchestra behind it.

There has been a lot of discussion here of the DPA lapel mics and lots of people seem to be satisfied with their quality.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by chris319

One idea is to put the spot mic behind the soloist pointing downstage, over the soloist's shoulder. A cardioid mic would suppress the orchestra behind it.

That's exactly what I had in mind with my idea... Depends on heights and distances.

[chris319]

Originally Posted by d_fu

That's exactly what I had in mind with my idea... Depends on heights and distances.

You suggested mounting a mic on the main ORTF stand. I'm thinking of a separate stand immediately behind the soloist, putting the mic maybe two feet from the instrument.

[WVUtubadude]

Whenever I do orchestras with soloists, I use ORTF like I always do, but then I supplement it with A-B or use spot mics. Depending on the venue, I sometimes suspend one of those Audio Technica U853s and just mark where the soloist should stand with some red or yellow gaff tape.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by chris319

There has been a lot of discussion here of the DPA lapel mics and lots of people seem to be satisfied with their quality.

And most of that discussion does not involve mounting mics on or that close to an instrument in a concerto-type setting. DPA lav mics are indeed great. When I am forced to use lav mics and/or wireless, they are first things I reach for. When I do orchestras where I need that close "dig," I have a bunch of 4061's. For live sound, 4061 and 4066 headsets are used. Last summer, at the Ojai Festival, I had 4061 and 4066s on Eighth Blackbird for all of their theatrical playing (using Sennheiser 5000 series wireless).

That being said, as soon as they were seated, I had my typical mics out- Neumann, DPA , Schoeps, etc... small diaphram mics and some Royer ribbons.

Great tools are only great tools when used in the proper situation.

Now, as for placing mics- there are plenty of ways you can do it. I would suggest keeping the mics in front of the player. You'll find it a lot easier to get a consistent position. Also, especially for strings, I find players really like to complain about mics behind them. They can be hit with a bow and if they move much, they end up way off position. You definitely have more room for error when the mic is out front. If you're worried about how it looks, use a small mic and/or use an active stand (ie DPA Flamingo, Schoeps Colette tubes, Sennheiser 8000 seires active stands, etc...)

--Ben

[chris319]

I would hesitate to put anything in front of the player pointing upstage as I'd think it would pick up a great deal of the orchestra behind him. A stand off to the side with a boom suspending the mic over the instrument from above might be a possibility.

[fifthcircle]

Speaking from experience, it really isn't that big of an issue if you position the mics correctly. Go to any symphony concert that is being recorded- you'll see it being done this way. There is a reason for that.

There are plenty of positions for the violin that will sound great depending on the sound you're looking for and the mic you're using. If you are really that concerned with the pickup of the orchestra, then use a hypercardiod mic.

Also, if you end up with too isolated of a sound on the soloist, you'll find that it doesn't really want to sit correctly in the mix.

--Ben

[chris319]

if you end up with too isolated of a sound on the soloist, you'll find that it doesn't really want to sit correctly in the mix.

This is an interesting point. Perhaps I'm worrying too much about a non-problem.

[Deacon Palmer]

Originally Posted by chris319

There has been a lot of discussion here of the DPA lapel mics and lots of people seem to be satisfied with their quality.

I'm a pro violinist. Most soloists wouldnt be caught dead with a mic like that. You could use them for pit work, pops stuff, TV work, "fiddlin", maybe a modern piece etc, but a soloist in a concerto doesnt wear a clip on mic.

I'm thinking of a separate stand immediately behind the soloist, putting the mic maybe two feet from the instrument.

Prepare for hell.

Mics and classical musicians go together like peanut butter and lettuce. You can't have a mic in anyone's line of sight. You can't have one where anyone will come remotely close to it or they will bitch. Most important: if there is one pro on the stage, there WILL be a battle.

Every concert hall has hanging mics, permanently up there. Since they are always there, nobody knows if they are actually turned on or not. This is good, for you. If there is a mic at stage level or on the stage, people will complain. Things like EMGs (Electronic Media Guarantee), union rules, on and on. People assume that if you record a show, you might sell it and they want a cut.

Even community and college orchestras have strict rules. If the show goes bad, obviously they don't want the recording to go out. THEREFORE, the best thing to do is not disturb anybody, hang mics overhead, and don't tell anyone you are taping the show. Even with permission, a mic right in front of a player can make them freak out in a show.

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by Deacon Palmer

Most important: if there is one pro on the stage, there WILL be a battle.

...

Even community and college orchestras have strict rules. If the show goes bad, obviously they don't want the recording to go out. THEREFORE, the best thing to do is not disturb anybody, hang mics overhead, and don't tell anyone you are taping the show. Even with permission, a mic right in front of a player can make them freak out in a show.

I can't say that I have found this to be the case with most professional players. It is true that mic's are often hung for visual reasons, but having spots on stands is hardly unusual. Obviously you want to be as unobtrusive as possible, taking aesthetics, sight-lines, and the motion and comfort of the player into account. But it has to sound good too

For solo violin, if "powered tubes" of the Schoeps/Neumann/Sennheiser ilk are not available, an SDC mounted on a black round-base straight stand, with a black gooseneck if needed, will do nicely. A couple of feet in front of the player will probably do - check for comb filtering problems with the main pair.

If the mains are properly placed, you can sometimes do without the spot, but it's nice to have it in case you want to add a little presence later.

[Deacon Palmer]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I can't say that I have found this to be the case with most professional players..

I have, and see it all the time. I've been playing in pro orchs for a 1/4th century. You typically get the "We're taping for archival purposes" speech. I guess somewhere, there is a huge fault that has all the "archival purposes" tapes.

But it has to sound good too

Right. There's a big difference between the players "knowing" about it and not knowing. Many orchestras have EMGs, and they pay you a fee each year so that the concerts can be taped and played on the radio. In a case like that, people are aware of the situation and will try (usually) to be somewhat accomodating.

Just sticking mics in front of a band is a totally different scenario. It's not always that people are being pricks, a lot of times it's written into contracts (or "bylaws" for community or college orchestras).

I did a "Messiah" gig in December, some amateur choir hired a few pros to play. During the show, they announced that last year's Christmas show would be on sale in the lobby on CD. That's unnacceptable. If they would have asked us if they could tape the show for sale next year, people may have reacted differently. But just announcing that the show is being taped, sold for a profit and you don't get a cut (or a say) went over like a ton o bricks. It's a bad scene because it makes the pros look like evil bad guys, when in fact it's nothing like that. We were paid to do a concert, nothing more.

Therefore, you either ask permission and roll with the punches, or you record it and be sneaky! Chances are, the violinist just wants to hear it, and most people would be fine with that, but not all will.

One of my first solo appearances with a pro orchestra was when I was 19. A friend of mine set up some mics and was going to tape it. Before the show, someone in management saw them and literally ripped them down, seriously. It was my introduction into the world of union gigs, it was a union orch.

Since then I've seen it a lot. I've played in the orchestra backing soloists like Perlman and Pinky Zukerman. I kid you not, both of them came to rehearsals and said "Kill those damn mics now, take them off of the stage". Granted that they are superstars, but I see it at every level. Since I do a lot of union gigs, one certainly can't just stick up a mic and press record. That mentality carries over to other gigs too. Anytime there is mic up, people notice.

[chris319]

The violinist in this case is a 16-year-old music student -- not a prodigy, just a regular music student. The venue will be a small community church -- no union, no hanging mics.

Another crazy idea would be to put a PZM on the stage surface.

don't tell anyone you are taping the show

I'm doing this with the full knowledge and consent of the conductor so the cat's out of the bag.

Anyone who literally rips my equipment down will face an interesting challenge driving home with the gashes I put in their tires.

[audibell]

Hi, I think you are right to have something in closer for when the soloist, as Ben points out, pulls to the left or merges entirely into the band. It is, after all, a violin concerto, with orchestra. I choose the hypercardiod too, to reduce bleed from the concert mistress etc. The picture shows how far away the solo was and the whole rig was on one mast, for most of the reasons that Deacon cites.
I find that it's the cables that cause the most angst from the management, stage crew and fire deputy. As for archival recordings, the great vault is the local governments, whose grant processes require a recording to validate the "claim" of a performance. I have to restrict myself at concerts to one stick only; cables MUST be taped down to prevent falls and claims.
I included a snip to show the balance of the solo against the band and the room tone, there's no processing except gain changes during editing. 2 omnis, an sf12 in blumlein and the nt3. Nobody's going to rip your gear down but they might bump into it and have something fall off; I use lead shot bags for this and yellow caution tape for hi viz. Have fun and enjoy it.
BRgds
WalterT

[Deacon Palmer]

Originally Posted by chris319

I'm doing this with the full knowledge and consent of the conductor so the cat's out of the bag.

Awesome.

[fifthcircle]

I'd stay away from the PZM. Not only will you be guaranteed of getting more "slop" than you know how to deal with, but you're also going to get a lot of foot noise.

As for the comments about recording- as long as things are worked out with the ensemble, it has never been an issue for me. Union groups or not. Stands aren't an issue and recording isn't an issue. The bigger groups in the major halls require hanging when possible, but if it isn't possible, they want the recording anyways.

Musicians here in LA respect recording gear. God knows, enough of them work in the studios not to have issue. The non-pro groups are usually happy to have the show recorded. If a musician complains, I send them to the group's management. After all, it is the group that hires me and not the musician. Along those lines, I do not give out copies of recordings to any musician in the group without going through the hiring organization. It has resulted in a few hurt feelings when the group says "no" but in the end, people are very happy that I respect their recording rights.

Musicians also realize that there have to be mics out to do a recording. If you respect their needs as performers, then you don't have much to worry about. Don't do something stupid and they won't have issue. Let them do their job and you can do yours.

In the end, be a pro and people won't have issue with you.

--Ben

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

For solo violin, if "powered tubes" of the Schoeps/Neumann/Sennheiser ilk are not available, an SDC mounted on a black round-base straight stand, with a black gooseneck if needed, will do nicely. A couple of feet in front of the player will probably do - check for comb filtering problems with the main pair.

Most of the time, the comb filtering is caused by the delay between the spot mic and the main pair. That couple milliseconds can be brutal sometimes.

Now, delay the spot to the main pair and not only will the integration of solo and orchestra be better, but you'll eliminate the delay and as a result you'll eliminate the comb filtering.

--Ben

[Deacon Palmer]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

As for the comments about recording- as long as things are worked out with the ensemble, it has never been an issue for me. Union groups or not.

Correct. I was under the impression that it wasn't worked out and would be more "on the fly".

Musicians in a pro orchestra vote, a simple majority is needed. It can be for small stuff: a rich donor got to conduct the National Anthem and wanted to have a recording of it. Everybody understands that rich donors pay our rent and are fine with it, as long as you ask in advance.

One orchestra I was in had an asst conductor who was a jerk. He wanted to have a camera focused solely on him, and use it as an "audition video" to apply for other orchestras. We voted no. Why? Because he was a jerk. He had to pay each person 100 bucks out of his pocket. This was 15 years ago.

Recently, another asst conductor in another orch did the same thing. We said "sure". Why? He brought cookies.

[chris319]

This is a youth symphony which I've talked about several times here before. The conductor/founder is very much in charge. The musicians are largely middle and high school age, with a couple of grown-ups who want to play for recreation.

The conductor is now also the "poster girl" for Bayer aspirin. On their way to concerts in Australia/New Zealand last summer, she had a heart attack as the plane was landing. She took aspirin. The Bayer people heard the story and contacted her. I present our conductor:

Marcy Sudock's 81 reasons why she's on an 81 mg aspirin regimen.

Reason #81 makes reference to a youth orchestra.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Most of the time, the comb filtering is caused by the delay between the spot mic and the main pair. That couple milliseconds can be brutal sometimes.

Now, delay the spot to the main pair and not only will the integration of solo and orchestra be better, but you'll eliminate the delay and as a result you'll eliminate the comb filtering.

--Ben

Unfortunately in the real world this doesn't always happen, delaying spots can be fraught with danger, particularly as the closer you get, even the smallest delay inaccuracy is likely to show more.

[dtf]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Most of the time, the comb filtering is caused by the delay between the spot mic and the main pair. That couple milliseconds can be brutal sometimes.

Now, delay the spot to the main pair and not only will the integration of solo and orchestra be better, but you'll eliminate the delay and as a result you'll eliminate the comb filtering.

--Ben

This is actually not correct. The natural acoustical time delay is exactly the reason why there will be less comb filtering in comparison to electronically delaying the spot.

The fact that the spot is earlier is the reason that it can be used with less level - our hearing prefers the earlier signal. Now when you delay the spot it will have to be used with a much higher level before it will be heard - and that's when the signals will affect each other more and you will get comb filtering.

Best,
Dirk