Recording audio for video?

[jnorman]

more and more often now, i am asked to produce video recordings of small gigs, auditions, etc. generally, they just want something to throw up on youtube, but with good audio rather than just the normally lousy audio from whatever video camera.

currently, i am using jsut my little panasonic FX100 - a P&S camera that will shoot HD video, which i use at 848x480 at 30fps, while recording the audio separately on a laptop system. back in the studio, i merge the audio tracks with the video recording using Ulead DVD studio software. works pretty good, though rather time consuming to accommodate for small paying gigs.

are there any affordable video cameras that can adequately record high-quality audio tracks? - yes, i know the canon AH1 and others, but they are $2500 or more. i bet more than a few of you are also facing this - what are your best recommended solutions, gear-wise and production-wise?

[MaTr1x2051]

I think you'll find that recording the two separately is still the best way to go. Rather than buying a new camera that might be better, is there a way you can streamline your workflow? Maybe buy new software that syncs more easily? I'm not familiar with your software, but from my experience, it really only takes about 1 or 2 minutes to sync audio to video. I don't do the video portion of the work so I don't know equipment etc... but it still seems you should try attacking the problem from a practical point of view, rather than a gear point of view.

Or if the final 'bounce' from file to DVD is what is taking so long, maybe consider buying a new computer for that. It shouldn't cost you more than a few hundred dollars, and then you still have your audio system free to do other work while the video bounces.

[XJR]

I don't think any camera is capable of really good audio unless it's kept in a static position and fed from a couple of good mics.

I tend to do what you do, record the audio to multitrack laptop and then sync it to the video using the free Movie Maker that comes with Windows, example YouTube - Eruption Live - You really got me

A quick mix and sync like that would maybe take 30 mins tops normally

The new Zoom Q3 is supposed to be a musicians camera with the same kinda mics as the H4 field recorder but I haven't used one yet

[BrianHanke]

I agree that sticking with recording the audio separately is the easiest and cheapest way to go. I used a Ulead video editing program a long time ago and wasn't too impressed with the workflow. Check out Adobe Premiere Pro or Premiere Elements to see if they allow you to work more efficiently.

[David Spearritt]

Checkout the software called Edius Neo.
EDIUS Neo 2 | Grass Valley

Very reasonably priced. ~$250 AUD

[idylldon]

I record a lot of college/conservatory audition DVDs and have found that this little box makes life a lot easier if your camera has a remote mic input:

BeachTek DXA-2s Dual XLR Compact Adapter

Basically, I run a mix out of my board and into the Beachtek and the sound is excellent. You can also run mics in directly if you'd rather do it that way, but since I often have numerous instruments involved I do it via a mix.

Here's another one:

Landing_Beachtek

If I have to do any video editing, I use Adobe Premier Pro, which is very high quality and pretty easy to learn. Video processing, though, takes a lot more time than audio, and the final compiling can take quite a while before it's ready to burn to DVD. I've just ordered the necessary hardware to build a I7 920 system, which should cut the processing time down considerably over my old computer system.

Cheers,
--
Don

[mixedupsteve]

I've had a related problem. I have recorded audio and video separately and then lined it up in the software. Even though I get it synced great at the beginning it wanders off within several minutes. Any ideas?
I've tried Imovie and Sony Vegas moviemaker pro.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by idylldon

I record a lot of college/conservatory audition DVDs and have found that this little box makes life a lot easier if your camera has a remote mic input:

BeachTek DXA-2s Dual XLR Compact Adapter

Basically, I run a mix out of my board and into the Beachtek and the sound is excellent. You can also run mics in directly if you'd rather do it that way, but since I often have numerous instruments involved I do it via a mix.

Here's another one:

Landing_Beachtek

If I have to do any video editing, I use Adobe Premier Pro, which is very high quality and pretty easy to learn. Video processing, though, takes a lot more time than audio, and the final compiling can take quite a while before it's ready to burn to DVD. I've just ordered the necessary hardware to build a I7 920 system, which should cut the processing time down considerably over my old computer system.

Cheers,
--
Don

We got one of those Beachtek boxes for our SONY HD camera and did a trial music recording with it and it had some problems. We use a separate digital card recorder and two professional microphones for doing what you are doing and it works great and doesn't slow down our work flow at all. We might have gotten a defective Beachtek unit and we are going to try another one just to be sure. I will report the results back to this forum.

IMHO Beachtek adapters are fine for voice but music is a whole other quality level.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

IMHO Beachtek and high quality do not belong in the same sentence. We got one of those boxes for our SONY HD camera and did a trial recording with it and it really sounded bad. We use a separate digital card recorder and professional microphones for doing what you are doing and it works great and doesn't slow down our work flow at all. Maybe we got a bad unit but I don't think so.

Beachtek adapters are fine for voice but music is a whole other quality level.

While I agree that you'll never win any awards for audio quality with the Beachtek setup, it will do just fine for what the OP wanted; that is, for posting clips on Youtube, etc., which, as you might be aware, compresses everything pretty much into the ground anyway. I run great mics into a Millennia pre into a Neotek console and out to the camera. The sound is fine.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Petrus]

If the camera has mic input (usually 3.5mm stereo jack) you can, with some mixers, feed mic level signal to it. The converters in cheap cameras are not the greatest, but much better than what most people think (better specs than analog Nagras of the seventies...) and would not be the bottleneck in the audio chain. One caveat if course is that some cameras have no manual audio level adjustement at all. With those it is useless to try to get even mid-fi audio quality.

Even if camera and separate recorder are running at the same rate, the clocks are not perfect and drift will happen. With better gear only after an hour or so, with amateur gear after just few minutes. In some editors there is a possibility to stretch or shorten the audio to make the sync better.

Remember to use slate inthe beginning to make syncing easy. No need for a proper slateboard, just tap something in the picture with a pencil, clap hands, take a flash picture with a DSLR...

[Matti]

I would go with separate audio. I use Vegas Pro for occasional video editing and with PuralEyes plugin can sync multiple cameras automatically. And for longer takes drifting don´t stretch the audio but picture, easy on Vegas. ( No, you cannot beat Nagra with consumer camera stuff IMO )

Help for PluralEyes (Sony Vegas Pro edition)


Matti

[mllrtms]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

I've had a related problem. I have recorded audio and video separately and then lined it up in the software. Even though I get it synced great at the beginning it wanders off within several minutes. Any ideas?
I've tried Imovie and Sony Vegas moviemaker pro.

Your camcorder and audio tracks are being recorded at different frequencies or frame rates. The place you are doing your video editing will effect the advise you should receive because the frequency changes depending on where in the world you are working. In the USA NTSC is used which operates at 60Hz. In Europe it is PAL which operates at 50Hz.

This is the easiest way to put it, although the answer is a bit more complex in reality. Find out what rate your camcorder is recoding at and then adjust your audio to match it it.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by mllrtms

Your camcorder and audio tracks are being recorded at different frequencies or frame rates. The place you are doing your video editing will effect the advise you should receive because the frequency changes depending on where in the world you are working. In the USA NTSC is used which operates at 60Hz. In Europe it is PAL which operates at 50Hz.

This is the easiest way to put it, although the answer is a bit more complex in reality. Find out what rate your camcorder is recoding at and then adjust your audio to match it it.

Audio has no PAL or NTSC, no 50 Hz or 60 HZ. The advice above makes absolutelly no sense.

In video the audio sample rate is 48 kHz. If the audio is mistakenly recorded at 44.1 or 88.2 it is readily apparent. Besides converting the audio sample rate is easy and some video editors do it automatically.

The sync drift happen only because camera and audio recorder clocks do not match perfectly, even if they both are running at the same correct speed. With professional gear a sync cable is used or the clocks are fed from a common reference (wordclock).

One possible reason for sync drift with NTSC is the slightly nonstandard speeds used when shooting progressive footage with pulldown. For that purpose pro recorders have obscure sample rates like 47.95, 48.048 and 96.096 kHz. If the OP is doing that this might be the culprit.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by MATTI

( No, you cannot beat Nagra with consumer camera stuff IMO )

Matti

By looking at the dynamic range, S/N, wow&flutter etc figures: yes we can beat Nagra...

I have measured over 90 dB S/N ratio with Panasonic DVX100 and Canon XH-A1 for example (not really amateur, but still). No analog Nagra can get even close.

In other respects, maybe no (mic pre quality etc), but I mentioned Nagra just to give some perspective. Even substandard digital audio in consumer camcords is so good now that audio pros would have killed for it in the sixties... Still, if the audio does not turn out well we rather blame the equipment than learn the basics.

[Matti]

When I started in seventies we used some gear from sixties and even earlier and they measured better than some professional gear then new.
Not starting a discussion about this...

Cheers

Matti

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Petrus

The sync drift happen only because camera and audio recorder clocks do not match perfectly, even if they both are running at the same correct speed. With professional gear a sync cable is used or the clocks are fed from a common reference (wordclock).

One possible reason for sync drift with NTSC is the slightly nonstandard speeds used when shooting progressive footage with pulldown. For that purpose pro recorders have obscure sample rates like 47.95, 48.048 and 96.096 kHz. If the OP is doing that this might be the culprit.

I think this is the problem.
Anyway, what I've done is borrowed an inexpensive IEM system. I'm going to mix to stereo on they fly and send it to the camera for recording. This is just proof of concept and if it works well for me then I'll buy a better IEM rig and a second better camera for a two camera setup.

[videoteque]

Jnorman, three simple possibilities:

1) You can try to bring with you a mixer and send the stereo out to the "mic in" of your camcorder. You probably have to find an adapter/cable that goes from two XLR/jacks out to mini jack stereo...

2) Another way to save time is to not make takes, make a one take recording of audio and video. It will take longer to put in your computer, but this way you just have to sync once.

3) Plural Eyes if you are working with FCP or Vegas.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by videoteque

Jnorman, three simple possibilities:

1) You can try to bring with you a mixer and send the stereo out to the "mic in" of your camcorder. You probably have to find an adapter/cable that goes from two XLR/jacks out to mini jack stereo...

2) Another way to save time is to not make takes, make a one take recording of audio and video. It will take longer to put in your computer, but this way you just have to sync once.

3) Plural Eyes if you are working with FCP or Vegas.

You will also have to have some pads if you are going to feed a line level signal into the microphone inputs of the camera. Output of most mixers is +4 dBU - input to most microphone inputs is -60 dBU.

[Petrus]

The first thing to check is if the camera has manual audio level setting possibility. If not, forget using the camera for any serious music recording, mixer, line, mic, whatever.

[chris319]

Originally Posted by Petrus

The first thing to check is if the camera has manual audio level setting possibility. If not, forget using the camera for any serious music recording, mixer, line, mic, whatever.

It doesn't even need to be variable. A fixed-level line input would do. Not so long ago many consumer camcorders came with a line input.

[rackdude]

High quality? If you want something that will get you in the range of a standalone recorder (notice, I just said in the range. It was good enough for me) I'd suggest one of the Canon's. I used to have a HV20 but now I switched off of tape to a HF11. These have manual audio gain control and have an attenuator inside of them. I ran feeds from soundboards in theaters all the time into the HV20 and it was fine. Still, realize that the camera is stationary unless you're somehow getting the board feed wireless... and it has to be the board feed. Doesn't matter what mic you're using, you need a feed from the sound board if you want any acceptable quality.

With the Beachtek recommendation I would say get a Juicedlink instead. They have preamps built in there. Switch it to line level when taking it from the board. This is talking off of just one time use of the Beachtek and one time use of the Juicedlink, so take it as it is. But if I had to borrow either one again, it would be the Juicedlink. Though for the most part if you're only taking feeds from the board and not doing interviews after the show or anything then a simple XLR to 1/8" is fine. I got mine from Naiant when I bought X-S mics and it works great... but it doesn't seem like he sells accessories anymore. I've heard people say that this isn't good for a long run but for runs about 15' it was acceptable for me.

If you want to move around you need a B-cam. You always need the wide shot and the B-shot. Learn to use Premiere or Vegas well and you'll see it's not hard to set up a duel camera thing. Click at around the same time, and do the show, and it will line up pretty good. Fix it up a bit and use the multicam features just to flip when necessary. Mute the B-cam audio. Done.

Originally Posted by videoteque

3) Plural Eyes if you are working with FCP or Vegas.

Just saw this, this would be perfect for getting the B-cam feed spot on.

[rackdude]

If you have any other questions, the man to talk to about audio for video is Ty Ford. I know he doesn't frequent here much but I've emailed him and he answers pretty quickly. He knows more about mics for video than anyone I can imagine and had a ton of shootouts to hear what he was talking about. I would imagine he would be able to help you out.

[Sevitzky]

to the OP:

I'll betcha, in 5 years, no one is going to hire a remote recordist who doesn't do video.

But, it's a can of worms dude. Video sync is a whole other world, especially because you're talking about straight-up consumer gear. The miracle of consumer technology is you have all these relatively cheap systems that produce great results - but try getting them to talk to each other, and you're back at 'pro'-level budgets.


Here's my recommendation:

You buy a camera with 1/8" mini jack mic inputs. <$300

You make sure that camera can stream video/audio out, LIVE. (FW or A/V outputs)

You buy a cheapo, standalone DVD recorder and dub it live and wash your hands. <$200

You go SD all the way. Do not even think about HD unless you want to restructure the cost/benefit analysis of your whole business.




Plan this based on smart business decisions, not your instinct for quality above all else. Anything else, I guarantee three words: Can of Worms.

Important questions:
Do you really want to fix sync drift in post? (NO!)
Do you want to learn new editing software?
Do you want to learn about video compression as relates to DVD authoring?
Invest in a completely upgraded clocking system to handle video sync?

If you haven't already, take a deep breath and dive into
Geo's sound post corner
and all the video boards out there....



-----
Edit:
Like some of the guys said above, you don't want inputs with auto gain control - but you probably have no choice. I've emailed consumer camcorder companies, and most of their "tech" guys "don't know whether AGC is turned off when using external signal. Brill!

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by Sevitzky

Plan this based on smart business decisions, not your instinct for quality above all else.

I think this is great advice that we can all live by, even though this is Gearslutz and it probably goes against everything we believe. In the end we have to make business decisions (if we want to be doing this as a business) and not those based on playing with cool toys. Of course, if you're doing this for pure enjoyment and hobby, go nuts.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by rackdude

If you have any other questions, the man to talk to about audio for video is Ty Ford. I know he doesn't frequent here much but I've emailed him and he answers pretty quickly. He knows more about mics for video than anyone I can imagine and had a ton of shootouts to hear what he was talking about. I would imagine he would be able to help you out.

How is Ty Ford? Where has he been hanging out? I learned so much from guys like him, Scott Dorsey, Mike (I'm blanking on his last name) in the Usenet days at rec.audio.pro. A great group of guys who were always quick to help anyone, answering the SAME OLD questions again and again. Is his web site still up and running? I'm sure his mic samples would useful for some folks around here.

[Matti]

Ty Ford Audio & Video

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

How is Ty Ford? Where has he been hanging out? I learned so much from guys like him, Scott Dorsey, Mike (I'm blanking on his last name) in the Usenet days at rec.audio.pro. A great group of guys who were always quick to help anyone, answering the SAME OLD questions again and again. Is his web site still up and running? I'm sure his mic samples would useful for some folks around here.

You may find Ty Ford at dvinfo.net.

Back to the topic, I recommend Sound Devices MixPre, and pair of high quality microphones, plus a pocket audio recorder. Very high quality result could be done. All the other major issue shall be taken good care of, such as the sweet spot for the microphones...
With Sound Devices MixPre, you got balanced output as well as un-balanced output for almost any kind of recording devices, from pro to consumer.

[rackdude]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

How is Ty Ford? Where has he been hanging out? I learned so much from guys like him, Scott Dorsey, Mike (I'm blanking on his last name) in the Usenet days at rec.audio.pro. A great group of guys who were always quick to help anyone, answering the SAME OLD questions again and again. Is his web site still up and running? I'm sure his mic samples would useful for some folks around here.

Yeah, his website and DVinfo are the two places I see him around. He's also on DVXuser but I don't frequent there much. His bootcamp and articles is the basis of my knowledge too. Great guy.

[chris319]

You buy a camera with 1/8" mini jack mic inputs. <$300

I once looked into this and all of the cheap video cameras I found didn't have an external audio input of any kind (maybe I didn't look hard enough?). They all had captive on-board mics, good enough for shooting your three-year-old's birthday party.

I wonder if there is a way to do this: Find a camcorder with a low-fi audio input and feed it external time code, and from the same time code generator feed one track of, say, an Edirol R-44. In theory you could have software synchronize the two time codes and preserve lip sync.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by chris319

I once looked into this and all of the cheap video cameras I found didn't have an external audio input of any kind (maybe I didn't look hard enough?). They all had captive on-board mics, good enough for shooting your three-year-old's birthday party.

I wonder if there is a way to do this: Find a camcorder with a low-fi audio input and feed it external time code, and from the same time code generator feed one track of, say, an Edirol R-44. In theory you could have software synchronize the two time codes and preserve lip sync.

If you're not going to pop for a cam with XLRs or a BeachTek to get into the mic "in" jack, just run them wild and synch them up (use the waveforms from both the camera's onboard mic timeline and the imported audio's timeline). As long as you're not doing 30-minute takes with nowhere to make adjustments, you'll be fine. I did a web thing for the Nashville Chamber Orchestra a couple of years ago where a month after I'd completed the initial edit with camera audio (four cameras on a pair of tango dancers with the orchestra in the BG... two lockdowns - one full stage, one conductor cam - and two "features" with operators) the music director supplied me with a mastered 44.1 from their multitrack. I opened the project in FCP, imported the .AIF, matched the downbeat waveform, rendered the audio and video to a new export file and was done. Six minute clip... no noticeable drift.