mic'ing an oud

[spherop]

i am working on a project where i'll be recording an oud. for those of you who aren't familiar it's a 6 stringed lute-ish instrument - with nylon strings. it's most similar in tone to a nylon string classical - except that it's range goes considerably (down to c) lower - and in general it has a deeper resonance. it also has no frets.

I am recording in a small room that has ok sound for mixing - but is not a big asset acoustically in this case - close micing will likely be best.

i will be buying mics/pres b4 the project so please tell me what you recommend and how you'd mic it.

[zarembo]

what's the budget for gear?

[spherop]

in terms of price i will be spending about $6500 - but to solve several needs.
check this thread:
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=45155

[theom]

Is the Oud the main focus of the track? Will it be solo or oud and voice, or is it part of a larger band?

Oud's are super dynamic, depending on the player. If it is a solo recording you want to keep those dynamics as that IS part of most classical oud music.

If the oud is part of a more pop song or a larger group then you may need to limit a bit to keep it from bouncing in and out of the mix.

I'd suggest a hi gain low noise pre. GML, hardy twin servo,.

A ribbon, aea r84, royer r121, would be a good start.

A neuman km 100 with the cardiod capsule, #40 i think.
or a KM184 would be a good thing to try.
A nice, U67 would be good I bet.
soundelux LD's are nice too.


I wouldn't go stereo unless it is a solo oud recording. Even then, I wouldn't go stereo. unless it is the perfect space and you are using a stereo pair way back getting a balance of the room vs oud.

Ouds are cool.

[joaquin]

Hi there.
I'd walk around the instrument, and look for the places where you get the "best" sound. I'd use a couple of mics...probably something really close to the sound hole, and another one a bit further....if the room is'nt that good...maybe you can put a bit of your budget in to it!? For Mics...without knowing the instrument...probably some SDC for the close micing (SM81,KM84,Schoeps...) and LCD like a neumman 149 or 50 for the further one. I have great results with nylon acustic guitar with a U87 thru a RED1...I really couldn't give much advise without hearing the instrument and room.
Best of luck, and please post a sample of the sound, once you get it, and a picture.................Joaquin.

[spherop]

MMmm excellent info.
Ouds are indeed cool!

The Oud will not be solo much - mostly embedded in fairly 'phat' grooves. I will also be recording hand percussion elements as well.

Of the gear you mentioned I have been seriously considering the GML and AEA r84. A friend has the royer so I can try that as well for comparison.

I appreciate the info.

Originally Posted by theom

Is the Oud the main focus of the track? Will it be solo or oud and voice, or is it part of a larger band?

Oud's are super dynamic, depending on the player. If it is a solo recording you want to keep those dynamics as that IS part of most classical oud music.

If the oud is part of a more pop song or a larger group then you may need to limit a bit to keep it from bouncing in and out of the mix.

I'd suggest a hi gain low noise pre. GML, hardy twin servo,.

A ribbon, aea r84, royer r121, would be a good start.

A neuman km 100 with the cardiod capsule, #40 i think.
or a KM184 would be a good thing to try.
A nice, U67 would be good I bet.
soundelux LD's are nice too.


I wouldn't go stereo unless it is a solo oud recording. Even then, I wouldn't go stereo. unless it is the perfect space and you are using a stereo pair way back getting a balance of the room vs oud.

Ouds are cool.

[spherop]

Interesting ...
Well I have made some strides with the room - I have about 10 realtraps in use. Helps a lot but - still we're talking about a room 8 x 13... that has all the gear in it as well.

I will post some samples a little later on ...

Here's a pic:

Originally Posted by joaquin

Hi there.
I'd walk around the instrument, and look for the places where you get the "best" sound. I'd use a couple of mics...probably something really close to the sound hole, and another one a bit further....if the room is'nt that good...maybe you can put a bit of your budget in to it!? For Mics...without knowing the instrument...probably some SDC for the close micing (SM81,KM84,Schoeps...) and LCD like a neumman 149 or 50 for the further one. I have great results with nylon acustic guitar with a U87 thru a RED1...I really couldn't give much advise without hearing the instrument and room.
Best of luck, and please post a sample of the sound, once you get it, and a picture.................Joaquin.

[spherop]

out of curiosity ... with budget being somewhat of a factor (i need a bunch things):
of mercenary's sdc lineup:
http://www.mercenary.com/smaldiapfetc.html

any recommends ... how is the less $ josephson for example?

[joaquin]

WOW Beautiful instrument!!
Thanks for the pics. I'd move the performer around the room and see if you have improvements in the sound. Try playing facing a corner (depending on the materials, this could help)...and then from it...or, as far from walls as posible....good luck and thanks for the pics again.............Joaquin.

[David R.]

More important than the exact mic & pre is spending time to get the right mic position.

I got a great oud sound using an AT 4050 through a Pendulum MDP 1. Any good quality mic & pre combo can sound great if you spend the time on it.

For mics, a ribbon such as the AEA might work wonders, same as any LD condencer. I don't think there is a single 'go to' mic for the oud.

Ask people here what they use for accoustic guitar and you will get all kinds of answers.

Good luck. Hope the player has good intonation.

[udiserhan]

Originally Posted by spherop

out of curiosity ... with budget being somewhat of a factor (i need a bunch things):
of mercenary's sdc lineup:
http://www.mercenary.com/smaldiapfetc.html

any recommends ... how is the less $ josephson for example?

Hello Mr Sherop,
I am Serha AYTAN, an Oud player and teacher in TURKEY
and I Have got a home studio, in my opinion the best mic is DPA 4011. I have Brauner, AKG 414, Neumann KM184, but for oud the best one is DPA 4011.
And put the mic just opposite the neck ( where body and klavie meets ) about 30 - 35 cm away,
On the other hand The oud is very important, the oud in the picture you sent is not good.
İf yuo have any question you can ask.
regards.

[TanTan]

I've got good oud recordings with:

Lawson L47
AKG 414
Neumann 149

a U87 will also work, i'm not a fan of SDC's on oud

[AB3]

If you are multitracking the percussion and the oud, I believe the Josephson e22s will be the best for dumbeks, riq, dholla, etc. On the oud, I am not sure.

I just tested the Josephson e22s on my piano versus the DPA 4011, and the DPA 4011 I liked better on the piano, but I like the E22s better on percussion (other percussion!) However, the E22s on piano was no slouch and it made it brighter than the DPAs for some reason (which surprised me). All was through a Millenia HV3C pre.

A pair of E22s will let you get really close to the oud and it is not a harsh mic at all and has a great bottom end. (The best bayin/dholla sound yet for me)

The ribbon would be great but I am not sure if it would lose some translation in the mix. The oud is not a harsh instrument to begin with (for instance, a mandolin to me is more strident than an oud - so I would put a ribbon on a mando but probably not the oud - unless it was solo or close to solo oud.)

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by AB3

The ribbon would be great but I am not sure if it would lose some translation in the mix. The oud is not a harsh instrument to begin with (for instance, a mandolin to me is more strident than an oud - so I would put a ribbon on a mando but probably not the oud - unless it was solo or close to solo oud.)

the oud can get pretty harsh when played too loud .. but i wouldn't go ribbon with oud also

[AB3]

Good point. The factor I missed, is the style of the player and/or what is being played.

This was a tough question because there are so many variables. Not all ouds sound alike either.

Originally Posted by TanTan

the oud can get pretty harsh when played too loud .. but i wouldn't go ribbon with oud also

[beranie]

the movie "crossing the bridge - the sound of istanbul" features several "street-recordings" engineered by alexander hacke (from the "einstürzende neubauten"). Some Ouds too. And he always uses Oktava Mk012´s with great results IMO. By the way, the movie is great and worth watching!!!

[jloyer]

Udiserhan,

I had to record a oud for a pop/worl music group last month ... had good results with MD441, placed on the side 1 foot away facing the big bridge / mirror. I will experience other technics with statics and other placement in further occasion ... What a beautiful instrument ! So much history and culture come to my mind when I can hear such instrument !

[AB3]

While not having done thorough research, I assume that the oud is the origin of the guitar (from the Moors bringing it into Spain) and the lute in Italy. I wish I could play the oud. Perhaps my favorite instrument. Sorry for the thread hijack. Someone correct this if they know more.

Originally Posted by jloyer

So much history and culture come to my mind when I can hear such instrument !

[NathanEldred]

Schoeps CMC6 MK4

[udiserhan]

[QUOTE=jloyer;986825]Udiserhan,

I had to record a oud for a pop/worl music group last month ... had good results with MD441, placed on the side 1 foot away facing the big bridge / mirror.

Jloyer

You can get good sound of oud from the big bridge and mirror too, but with plectrum's and big body's sounds with bass harsh. I don't like that sound. İn my opinion for getting clearer oud sound you'd better put the mic just opposit the place where fingerboard and front body meets and 30-35 cm away. On the other hand I think, in recording, Oud is a percussion instrument so it is better to use small diaphragm condenser microphones. But these are my opinions and I am not a tonmeister. I am only trying to get the closest sound to the sound of oud when I am playing it.

[NewOud]

Please forgive if this was covered somewhere and couldn't find it. I did search. I have a question... Live Show, Oud player with a Dumbec and violin...is there any reason why I couldn't use a Fishman SBT-HP or Fishman SBT-E contact pickups? Or anything simular were you don't have to drill anything in or change bridges?And plug into a direct box? Instead of micing it. Problems in the past with just micing. Or is micing the best bet? Thanks

[u b k]

Originally Posted by spherop

The Oud will not be solo much - mostly embedded in fairly 'phat' grooves. I will also be recording hand percussion elements as well.

In that case you'll want a focused sound with a good bit of room in it; r84 could be lovely, but might need some hi shelf to open it up.

Me, I'd go with spaced omnis a foot or two off the instrument and 2-3' apart. That'll give a hyperreal spread with intimacy sans proximity effect, plus a lot of air around the instrument. Oud's love air in my experience; too close with a cardioid and they lose their exotic vibe. A pair of 635's into some old tube pre's would have a killer old school magic.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[Barish]

Try an electric oud like the one Coskun Sabah uses if you want a pick-up sound:

Coþkun Sabah Anýlar Bu Akþam Ýçimde Hüzün Var video klip izle indir yükle download Video75 Türk Video Arama Motoru

B.

[joelpatterson]

Thanks for dredging this thread out of the depths, I'm going to record an oud later on this morning as part of a massive workout for my new Avant BV-1 tube mic!

[larry b]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Thanks for dredging this thread out of the depths, I'm going to record an oud later on this morning as part of a massive workout for my new Avant BV-1 tube mic!

Sweet!

I've been looking at that mic a lot recently. I have enough mics already, but im a slut.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on it after you give it a thorough workout.

thumbsupthumbsup

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by larry b

Sweet!

I've been looking at that mic a lot recently. I have enough mics already, but im a slut.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on it after you give it a thorough workout.

thumbsupthumbsup

I gotta say, so far it's been dreamy. Like, playback sounds more vivid than it did when you were monitoring(!)

You know what else, and this is the REALLY weird part-- it seems to reject click track bleed. I have no idea how that's even possible, because it's very sensitive, even at a distance when the player is tuning up and hasn't even approached the mic yet.

Very, very mysterious....

[larry b]

That's weird...

Man i could USE that! I'm always getting a bit of click bleed here and there with my LDC's. Especially when the talent has to rock one side of the 'phones slightly off the ear.

[joelpatterson]

Well, like I say, I can't explain it at all. But it was one thing I was dreading, and listening for... and it just wasn't there.

[nas]

I've found that the size and quality of the oud + the player's style and attack have a major impact on the overall sound. For a solo or sparse arrangement then a spaced pair or XY/ORTF position SDC or LDC a little further back in a good sounding room will give you a nice dynamic and open sound with plenty of depth. However, for a more dense mix then a smaller sized oud that has a good hi and mid response (less bass) works much better than a larger instrument. In this case, I would go for a single close mic. SDC no more than a foot away either at the bridge pointing away from the sound hole to get some good attack and brightness (watch out for too much bass and too much plectrum) or where the neck meets the body for a more "balanced" tone.

Again it really depends on the size and quality of the instrument, the player, and the style so you have to experiment. You may also need to cut some low mids and bass so it doesn't get too muddy or lost in a busy mix. If you find that there is too much dynamic variation with attacks then a very small and judicious amount of uncolored (transparent sounding) compression may help to even things out a bit. I have been using the AT 4050 LDC and more recently the Beyer MC930 SDC mics.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by NewOud

Please forgive if this was covered somewhere and couldn't find it. I did search. I have a question... Live Show, Oud player with a Dumbec and violin...is there any reason why I couldn't use a Fishman SBT-HP or Fishman SBT-E contact pickups? Or anything simular were you don't have to drill anything in or change bridges?And plug into a direct box? Instead of micing it. Problems in the past with just micing. Or is micing the best bet? Thanks

Aside from the fact that contact pickups don't sound very good compared to mics I guess not. A contact pickup only picks up the vibration at one point on the top so the tone is never properly balanced, even with a good pickup. I'd avoid it if possible at least for recording.