buying mics for decca tree plus outriggers

[richgilb]

Hello All

I swear I have read the posts with some dedication but am struggling to put the bits together. I am about to buy 5 microphones to support the option of offering a decca tree with 2 outriggers. Should I buy the same microphone for the outriggers and if not necessarily, should the outriggers be omni also?

Regards,
Rich

[audio ergo sum]

Looking at the polar pattern, this microphone will not give good results in a Decca tree.
Hebden Sound

For a Decca tree you are looking for something with more directionality toward higher frequencies and a wider on axis presence and brilliance boost with a lower peak (not +9 dB like your mic)
http://www.neumann.com/download.php?...d=cata0049.PDF

[richgilb]

That is unfortunate because they are supposed to be fantastic as a stereo pair for small groups and piano. I need the mics in the tree to work as a pair also.....back to the drawing board.

[NorseHorse]

Cardioid Condenser Microphone
Polar Pattern: Omni



Someone needs to clean up their website...

[richgilb]

so they may be displaying the pattern for the cardioid version of the mic, not the omni version, right? Meaning I am still on the right track.....and my original questions stand?

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Cardioid Condenser Microphone
Polar Pattern: Omni

Their subcard and hypercard caps also sport an omni pattern!

[audio ergo sum]

"Impedance: <600ohms"

that is too high and since when there is plural of ohm?

"Sensitivity: -32dBv/Pa (nominal)"

isn't the standard declaration in mV/Pa ?

[mpdonahue]

If what you are really looking for is a Decca Tree replacement for the M50, you could far worse than a set of KM183's with the SKB 130 balls. They are perfectly good omni's for recital work and are really the cheapest entry into the Decca tree.
Here in the states, the KM183 is going for between 7 and 8 hundred dollars. I wouldn't worry so much about the outriggers, as any decent omni will work in this role, the real issue is to get the LCR tree right first.
Now all you need is the Grace space bar and you're all set ;-)

All the best,
-mark

[audio ergo sum]

183 with SBK probably are the cheapest entry into the decca tree but do not come close to the "real deal" IMO. I had once a tree with 130 and SBK parallel to a tree with tlm50 for a test. The 130 with SBK are not very close to the tlm50 sound. the balls are too small in relation to the membrane diameter. Some are reporting good results with dpa 4006 and the 50mm balls or the Schoeps MK2S and the 40mm balls.

[boojum]

Has anyone tried the DPA 406n's with 40 or 50mm balls in a Decca Tree? Or does anyone know of someone who has??

[fifthcircle]

I use 50mm balls on a DPA 4006 and get great results. I've used those mics with and without balls and the balls help give a bit of focus that otherwise would be missing. I can't see how 4060/4061 would work with balls, how would they mount? Perhaps a 4090 would work...

The mics mentioned at the top of this thread may be ok, I have never used them so I can't say. But, dropping a 50mm ball on the omni would do what you need to make them work optimally in a tree. Or... you could perhaps use the subcards. I prefer omnis with balls to subcards, but you could do worse.

--Ben

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I use 50mm balls on a DPA 4006 and get great results. I've used those mics with and without balls and the balls help give a bit of focus that otherwise would be missing. I can't see how 4060/4061 would work with balls, how would they mount? Perhaps a 4090 would work...

The mics mentioned at the top of this thread may be ok, I have never used them so I can't say. But, dropping a 50mm ball on the omni would do what you need to make them work optimally in a tree. Or... you could perhaps use the subcards. I prefer omnis with balls to subcards, but you could do worse.

--Ben

Ben

Are you referring to the Hebdens?

Rich

[audio ergo sum]

Regarding outriggers there is no rule. It is freestyle, adjusted to taste.
5 similar types are great if the mics sound great for the application(e.g. 5 M50)
Sometimes, when using wide cardioids in the middle it is a good idea to use omnis for outriggers.
5 similar types are better for the special situation with solo instruments right below the inner omnis, in which case you need the outriggers for compensating the level of the reduced inner omni, if you can't reposition players and mics.

[amfortas2006]

Schoeps also has Decca-setup solutions

Complete Set for Recording with a Decca Tree<br /> Decca Tree Sets - Overview - SCHOEPS.de

or flea 50

[klaukholm]

My preference is 5 M150/tlm50 for this purpose.

I am looking forward to trying Kantolas take on the 50 concept, and I would recommend giving his a try when they come out, but until then the M150 is endorsed.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Ben

Are you referring to the Hebdens?

Rich

Yes... I couldn't find the link after I had started replying.

The point is (and a couple others have made it), you can grab just about any omni and throw a ball on the end. This will change the pattern in a way that will allow it to work on a tree a lot better.

Sure, the better mics are obviously suggested. There is a reason why the M50 and its various modern versions (ie TLM50, M150, etc...) is used. It just works. That being said, there are plenty of other mics that can get the job done- many of them good omnis with a ball on the end.

--Ben

[sonare]

Originally Posted by boojum

Has anyone tried the DPA 406n's with 40 or 50mm balls in a Decca Tree? Or does anyone know of someone who has??

I have several 4061s and cannot imagine how this could work either sound-wise (the tiny capsules are practically perfect omnis unlike larger capsules) or mounting-wise (you'd have to mount the balls and not the mic which would be literally swallowed by the ball). Perhaps an interesting DIY project-- but don't forget the 406X already have a bump around 12kHz caused by the grid that many classical folks remove to have a flat response.

The 409X is a better candidate-- but the flaired mic body and different-than-most polar response might explain why DPA did not try this. The 4003/4006 is a different story-- but the discussion seems to focus solely on response patterns and ignores the SOUND of the mics-- and therein is the difference between DPA and any Neumann whether tube or not. FWIW Simon Eadon was recording a Beethoven Symphony cycle with FET-modified M50 when Decca evaporated and he finished the cycle using Schoeps Mk2S with balls and said no one noticed a difference. Draw your own conclusions.

Rich

[richgilb]

So, balls is an idea I have not come across in the papers i have been reading...does anyone know of any articles that explain them?

[JonesH]

Check out DPA:s Mic University on the subject of Acoustic modification accessories.

basically, putting the microphone membrane mounted on a sphere gives a gradually rising frequency response and a less omni-directional polar response with higher frequency.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

"Impedance: <600ohms"

that is too high and since when there is plural of ohm?

"Sensitivity: -32dBv/Pa (nominal)"

isn't the standard declaration in mV/Pa ?

-32 dBV/Pa seems correct. It equals 10 at the power (-32/20) in V/Pa, that is 0.025 V/Pa = 25 mV/Pa.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by sonare

Draw your own conclusions.

Frequency response and directivity (ie. energy/power response) dictates most of what you hear when it comes to recording and playback gear. :-)


/Peter

[Storyville]

Hey, I don't use decca trees but I'm interested - so while we're on the subject I'd like to hijack and ask a few.

Standard setup is Omni-Cardioid-Omni correct? How do other settings fair in this array - such as omni-hyp.cardioid-omni. And for that matter, what about wonky setups like hypcard-omni-hypcard?

I assume out triggers are wider spaced pairs to add additional stereo information?

Lastly, this setup is commonly used in ensemble work yes? Anyone using it elsewhere?

[boojum]

This should help you:

Decca tree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[boojum]

Originally Posted by sonare

I have several 4061s and cannot imagine how this could work either sound-wise (the tiny capsules are practically perfect omnis unlike larger capsules) or mounting-wise (you'd have to mount the balls and not the mic which would be literally swallowed by the ball). Perhaps an interesting DIY project-- but don't forget the 406X already have a bump around 12kHz caused by the grid that many classical folks remove to have a flat response.

<snip>

Rich

There is a fellow who has worked with 4060's in a quad array and Nerf balls. He made a hole in them with a heated nail and held the mic in place with a shim.

I would run a groove along the outside and lay the mic flat and flush, as in the boundary layer mounts, in the front. It would take some whittling or building a holder to place in the Nerf balls. I am willing to try it just to see. Theoretically it should work, but we all know that one test is worth a thousand opinions.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by boojum

This should help you:

Decca tree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.... a little..... I'll post a new thread about it.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We use AT 4050s for our Decca Tree and they work GREAT!

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Yes... I couldn't find the link after I had started replying.

The point is (and a couple others have made it), you can grab just about any omni and throw a ball on the end. This will change the pattern in a way that will allow it to work on a tree a lot better.

Sure, the better mics are obviously suggested. There is a reason why the M50 and its various modern versions (ie TLM50, M150, etc...) is used. It just works. That being said, there are plenty of other mics that can get the job done- many of them good omnis with a ball on the end.

--Ben

This sounds like I could mix and match my balls with my mics, which would be useful. Thing is, I can only find a very few balls available and they seem to be sold as designed for a particular mic. Does such a thing as a universal ball exist, as long as it it slips onto the mic body correctly, any ball will do? I did see a post by a a studio that seemed to be making balls but again it was not clear if they were making them for specific mics or not

Rich

[hughesmr]

Rich, Mark Donahue was at one time developing spheres of varying sizes for the new Sennheiser MKH series. I stated I was certainly interested in purchasing some for my 8020s, but there has been no follow-up from his end.

Originally Posted by richgilb

This sounds like I could mix and match my balls with my mics, which would be useful. Thing is, I can only find a very few balls available and they seem to be sold as designed for a particular mic. Does such a thing as a universal ball exist, as long as it it slips onto the mic body correctly, any ball will do? I did see a post by a a studio that seemed to be making balls but again it was not clear if they were making them for specific mics or not

Rich