How tall can I go with my main stereo pair?

[Howie J]

I've been scouring the tags here and "The Google" for an answer and still am a little nebulous about this. Actually a two part question(s)?

Is there a general rule for how high main stereo pairs are supposed to be?

Most common thing I've heard is just behind the conductor and anywhere from 3 to 7+ feet up. Now we all know the battle between where we want them and where people will let us put them. I did like the comment that if you can see the sound source, you can hear it, but there has to be a ton more to it than that when you start talking about acoustic shells and how they work, etc. Especially when you're doing a mix of directional instruments (brass in back) and less directional in strings/woodwinds up front.


Spaced pairs: The few times I've had the chance to use them, I've placed them wide, like 1/3 of the way in from the ends of the ensemble. Now, I was always using spaced pairs as "outriggers" in addition to an ORTF or XY pair. So maybe wide as additional mics, narrow if it's a main pair?? Then....


How high "should" they be up?

As a note, the setup I've been using has been an ORTF behind the podium about 3ish feet up (all the higher I can currently get due to placement and equipment) but always have a pair of SDC omni's hanging about 10-12 feet up spaced wide like I previously mentioned. They are actually "flying" off an shell ceiling and always land about half way back over the ensemble. Then I add spots to taste for harpsichord and the like.


Thanks for reading and any suggestions. I'm thinking of trying to rig a semi-permanent fly/mounting system in our space and balancing aesthetics/acoustics/logistics.

Howie J

[sonare]

There is no official or magic number-- it depends on where you like the sound. With a cardioid ORTF main pair you might want to be a little further out than if you were using omnis (and with them the "traditional" spot is right behind the podium) but as for height above the surface where the musicians are seated-- I would start at 9 or 10 feet and adjust from there. Surely "3 feet" is a typo? That low and the floor reflections would be a problem-- along with other things.

Rich

[boojum]

I use the 3' - 7' above the conductor also. I put the mics up and down and a little back and forth until I find the sweet spot. I use a small recorder (SD722) and a pair of Etymotic ER4's which block much of the sound out. It has worked well so far. I have a pair of the Leight sound proof ear muffs that were recommended here coming to give me further isolation for locating mics.

I would think that a sweet spot 7'+ would be better served by "flying" the mics.

[RobAnderson]

Is there a catwalk or anything like that above the shell or in the vicinity of the proscenium?

[Howie J]

Rich, sorry...boojum hit it on the head. I meant 3-7 above the conductor, so you're right on.

Rob: My "catwalk" is half way back in the house (roughly18-20 feet back) and 30 feet up. I've hung ambient "room" mics there, but they never did enough for me. I do have a ton of flylines...however when my shell is in place for all the concerts it becomes an alternating Electric line and Orch shell. Three dedicated electrics with ~8500 Watts of lights humming nestled between the shells. That is why I've hung mics off the shell ceilings.

I'm playing with an idea of flying a stereo pair directly down from the proscenium.
Here's a crappy cell phone pic I took during the christmas elementary concert we host.

[RobAnderson]

The height of the array generally controls the balance and presence of the front and rear of the ensemble. Generally more height=more rear; less height=more front row.

The ideal would be to hang your semi-permanent array in such a way that you can make height and distance semi-easily adjustable depending on the situation. It looks like you have a balcony in that pic. Is this correct?

The easy solution: a long 5-pin XLR cable attached to an ORTF-ish array on a stereo bar - you will need adapter Y-cables at either end. Mount the bar on a cable-hangar of some sort and secure this to the long cable. Then run some dacron-type fishing line from the cable hangar to the balcony.

When you need to adjust height, raise or lower the cable. When you need to adjust distance, pull or let out the fishing line. When you are happy, tie both off securely so that nobody gets hurt by falling/swinging microphones.

I hope this makes some sort of sense...

[boojum]

If you want an AB array you can use the DPA 406n mics which are good and not too expensive. There are threads here with comparisons between these mics and the 4006TL's. The little guys do well. Also, there are plans for a carbon fiber mic stand which presents almost no sight line problems. It could also be a Decca Tree rig with minimal sight line problems. Just a thought as I am going in that direction.

A chorale director I work with has signaled a preference for the 4061's over the 4006 TL's. I ran a parametric adjustment on them to simulate the sound response of the 4006 TL's with the trapezoid grill attached. It sounds pretty good alongside the 4006 TL's with the trapezoid grills.

I run AB's at the William's suggested 38 - 39cm.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by boojum

A chorale director I work with has signaled a preference for the 4061's over the 4006 TL's. I ran a parametric adjustment on them to simulate the sound response of the 4006 TL's with the trapezoid grill attached. It sounds pretty good alongside the 4006 TL's with the trapezoid grills.

Do you recall what the equaliser setting was?

Thanks

Larry

[Howie J]

Rob,

I get the basic idea of what you're saying. It's not too far from the scratch idea in my head. I do have a balcony. It even has convenient light hang bars to attach said line to. The one thing that was different in my idea is the XLR run. As you are looking at the stage, I have two mic/return patch panels on the back side of the proscenium. Inputs 1-8 on the SR/House L and 9-16 on the opposite side. I was thinking of making two custom cable runs and attaching them to the backside of the proscenium so they could just drop down to a stereo bar that would be attached to the lines you were talking about.

Howie J

[RobAnderson]

That will probably work fine - it's just that one cable will be easier to manipulate than two - also there will be less issues with twisting, making it easy to work with.

You can still use the patch panels - it is just a matter of running the 5-pin to the box and putting the breakout adapters there.

Another option would be to use a 2-channel XLR snake if that makes life better.

[Howie J]

Rob,

I'll be honest that I've never done a 5 pin XLR, although I agree that one cable would make life easier...in a couple places around stage. I do it with DMX, but not audio. I was looking around for a good diagram, but couldn't find one with the quick search. Do they share a ground and pins 1/2 and 4/5 go to the respective 3 pin XLR's?

I'll keep looking, or I'll get lazy and go to Redco and order them.

Howie J

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

Do you recall what the equaliser setting was?

Thanks

Larry

Sorry to take up thread space with this but I could not put the pic in an e-mail.

This is as close as I can come to taking out the hump and rolling off the high end as the trapezoids do on the 4006's.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by Howie J

Rob,

I'll be honest that I've never done a 5 pin XLR, although I agree that one cable would make life easier...in a couple places around stage. I do it with DMX, but not audio. I was looking around for a good diagram, but couldn't find one with the quick search. Do they share a ground and pins 1/2 and 4/5 go to the respective 3 pin XLR's?

I'll keep looking, or I'll get lazy and go to Redco and order them.

Howie J

On an XLR, the standard pin for the shield is Pin 1. I wire my 2 pair Canare as follows: Pin 1, common shield, Pin 2 L hi, Pin 3 L lo, Pin 4 R hi, and Pin 5 R lo.

D.

[RobAnderson]

Here's a link to an article that does a "how to" on both the 5-pin and the breakout Y-cables:

How to Wire a Stereo XLR to 3 Pin XLR Plugs: Make a Breakout Cable from A 5 Pin Socket to Two Mono Plugs

[RobAnderson]

And here's a pic of one of my homemade cable hangars: