Handheld Vocal Mic for Live Recording? Alternatives to SM58....

[zakco]

I'm interested in getting a vocal mic to use for lead vocals in a live recording setting as an alternative to the typical SM58. Something with good off axis rejection, reasonably high output and a forvgiving tonal quality that would be good with a wide variety of voices. It also needs to work as a handheld, so internal shockmounting and ergonomics (no SM7b's sadly...) are important. Not that 58's are so terrible, but often I need something a little cleaner and more detailed...

What are y'all using for this application?

Thanks,

-Z-

[Marshall Simmons]

I've been very pleased with the beta87's for the live/broadcast combo that I use. I use the hypercardiod version, and it does extremely well.

I'd love to try out the Neuman 105's but for half the price, the 87's are a large improvement over the standard 58's

[Remoteness]

Nowadays I use KMS105s. I don't leave home without them.
The SM87C sounds real good too.

[fifthcircle]

Bunch of good stuff out there- AKG 535 sounds pretty darned good- I also use Beyer M88's, Audix OM7, Beyer 500 (if you have pres to put at the stage for them- they are a ribbon mic and therefore really low output), Sennheiser 431 is also a good mic.

All these except the 535 and the M500 are dynamics.

I also use beta 87's and Neuman 105's as well- both with good results for differing kinds of voices.

-Ben

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by Marshall Simmons

I've been very pleased with the beta87's for the live/broadcast combo that I use. I use the hypercardiod version, and it does extremely well.

the Beta87A is a super-cardioid not a hyper-cardioid
it realy depends on the situation, voice, type of music and other stage sound
if you have compleate control over the venue sound then most likley one of the condensers mentioned above, ill also add the Rode S1 or even an NT3 if you singer doesnt move to much, dont dismiss them just because they are cheep, the NT3 is my favourite live vocal mic, very clean and has a flat responce but it has a little more handeling noise (but amazimg how little handeling noise for a studio mic)

if you have little control over the venue sound then use a beta58

[con_ritmo]

neumann kms105
audio technica ae5400 (at4050 in cardioid mode)

[Remoteness]

The beyer M500 ribbon mic is a dynamic...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[con_ritmo]

btw,
i just saw a snippet of alicia keys live and all the vocalists used ae5400's...just did a google search and it looks like she has a new "unplugged" album out...and there's that ae5400 on the cover.

and then, saw a snippet of norah jones live and there was a kms105...

only thought to mention this because i just happened to see both, and then boom, here's this thread.



oh, and for some voices, and at a *slightly* cheaper price point, i agree with the beta87 recommendation...

[Telecastr]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The beyer M500 ribbon mic is a dynamic...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A mic can be ribbon, dynamic, or condenser. It can only be one of those three choices. If you want to get really technical, a 4th choice would be a carbon mic (telephone, CB radios, etc). These all refer to the type of diaphragm in the mic.

I believe the polar pattern of an M500 is hyper cardioid.

We've got 3 of these mics, and as was said above, as long as you've got the enough gain in your pre, they will work wonderfully.

[Telecastr]

Originally Posted by con_ritmo

btw,
i just saw a snippet of alicia keys live and all the vocalists used ae5400's...just did a google search and it looks like she has a new "unplugged" album out...and there's that ae5400 on the cover.

AT ae5400's are great sounding mics as well. Got one of those too.

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The beyer M500 ribbon mic is a dynamic...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Its definitely a ribbon mic...

[Remoteness]

Hey wait a minute!

There are two types of dynamic microphones -- moving coil and ribbon.

Dynamic mics operate by electromagnetic induction to generate output signal.

Moving coil microphones operate with a voice coil suspended within a magnetic field.

Ribbon microphones also operate on electromagnetic induction but use a short diaphragm of extremely thin aluminum ribbon.

Now what do we do!

[Adebar]

For m a great mike on lead vocals for recording are the AT5400 or the former AT4054 and the Audix OM-6.

[Rick Sutton]

Mr Remote
You are right sir! According to my training and various published resources, the ribbon is indeed a form of dynamic microphone. Although it is commonly seperated from the SM57 and its ilk, it is a brother in disguise.

[zakco]

Wow. Lots of options I see....

I've already got a couple of beta 58s and to be honest, I'm not really crazy about them. They seem really unnatural to me. OK on some voices I suppose, but I'm looking for something better. I've also got several other dynamics (SM57/SM58/beta 58/SM7b) already, so I think a condenser is probably what I'm after.

How do the KMS105 and the Beta 87 deal with off axis noise from the monitor system/stage sound? Are they usable on a small stage with a full band? I'm not talking full-out punk bands, (58s are great there) but say a roots/country rock band with a female vocalist for example....?

Also, how would you describe the differences between the KMS105, Beta87 and the ae5400? Which one would be the most suitable for a wide range of voices, both male and female? The price isn't such a big deal it's the sound I'm after.

Thanks for the insight,

-Z-

[Telecastr]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Hey wait a minute!

There are two types of dynamic microphones -- moving coil and ribbon.

Dynamic mics operate by electromagnetic induction to generate output signal.

Moving coil microphones operate with a voice coil suspended within a magnetic field.

Ribbon microphones also operate on electromagnetic induction but use a short diaphragm of extremely thin aluminum ribbon.

Now what do we do!

Yeah I suppose you are right.

[audioez]

worked with a band that used a beta57a as the lead vocal. Very nice indeed. I actually forgot to use the eq, untill half way through the performance, opps gotta love live tv.

Although my favorite(s) are the SM58 and Beta58.
It's also good to take into consideration if wedges are involved, if that's the case, and my opinion matters, I just leave out condensers for vocals.

But in a day when every one and their mother has 'in ears', yeah and your uncle in jail too!! Just go with the flow; when it comes time to patch the desk, I'll just pick and choose from the brazzilion amounts of mics that bands use these days.

[zakco]

Well, I just ordered a B-Stock KMS-105 from ebay. The price was right and the seller was great to talk to. Very helpful. From I'm confident this mic will prove to be a valuable addition to my mic locker. Plus now I can finally put the "N" word in my equipment list for those clients who equate brand name with quality. As pathetic as that is it was part of my decision to get this mic.

I'm still interested in picking up a couple of other flavors too. Perhaps a Beyer M88 or something similar....

Thanks for all of the info,

-Z-

[Jim vanBergen]

The KMS-105 is a great choice and you'll be happy with it. Other mics I love are the Audix OM-5, Earthworks SR20(or SR69), Beyer M69 and M88, Sennheisser MKH40 and the dynamic 441. But the thing that stood out to me was your need for what sounded like a hypercardioid condenser, which is exactly what the 105 and Shure Beta 87 are. The 87 is a good mic, the 105 is excellent. I have a satin Audix OM-2xb that was made for Tony Bennett (yeah, and he used it for over a year) but while it has the tight pattern and is sensitive and sonicly wonderful, it has a little bit of handling noise that irritates me from time to time. The 105 is a tiny bit more expensive, but damn, it delivers so congrats!!!

[Walling1]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Beyer M88

Word, I've really been diggin my M88 lately. A bit too much handling noise for handheld use for me, but if it stays on a stand, that's not a problem.

-Dave

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The beyer M500 ribbon mic is a dynamic...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I suppose technically it is a ribbon dynamic. I meant as opposed to a standard moving coil dynamic and a condenser...

--Ben

[7rojo7]

AT5400 is very neutral and I believe it has 1" diaphragm, at least it looks like one. I like mine, specially for vocalists who get nervous in front of those LD Monsters with the pop filters in front of their face (I put one up anyway).
I've used the kms105 and was impressed, but I've only heard it live, best my voice ever sounded live.
AT5400 is half the price and it has a big sound, it records quite well, it's on all shootouts for vocals (the others are VM-1, Valvet, PhantomV, Stedman N90, RCA JV74, Schoeps ccm21) It's similar to the Brauner sound with less "realness". It's great because sometimes you have problems getting rid of the realness factor so it's better not to introduce it anyway. It also gets the call for Fl.Tom if my PL80 ends up on gtr or Alto Sax if a Scheops or a Brauner aren't available, want to hear it on bone. It's got a pad and a lo rolloff and it's sturdy.
A ribbon mic is a dynamic mic.

[Telecastr]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

It also gets the call for Fl.Tom if my PL80 ends up on gtr or Alto Sax if a Scheops or a Brauner aren't available, want to hear it on bone. It's got a pad and a lo rolloff and it's sturdy.
A ribbon mic is a dynamic mic.

It's funny you should mention that, because I was planning on trying it out on floor tom for my next drum sessions. I actually looked at the response chart for the first time last week, after owning this mic since they first came out, and thought I'd see how it worked.

[zakco]

Well, I just got out and recorded two shows with my new KMS-105....

Mixed results...the first show was a young female singer/songwriter with a mostly airy, breathy delivery. The 105 was great for these songs/sections, but often she would push a little harder and her voice would develop a hardness in the 2-5khz region. For that the 105 was REALLY unforgiving. This mic is VERY bright to my ears. When I mixed the tracks back at the studio, I used quite a bit of automated EQ to soften these parts. Very tedious, but I did end up with a very nice result in the end, but I can't help but feel there may have been a better mic for the job....


The second show was an acoustic trio featuring a male vocalist with a huge, low, resonant tone. WOW......the 105 was amazing on his voice. Stunningly clear and detailed with a very controlled proximity effect. He used the proximity constantly for effect and it never was overbearing. Huge, but controlled....I'm very impressed with the 105 in this situation.

In both cases, the 105 behaved very nicely onstage, no feedback or bleed problems. I don't think it will always be my mic of choice, but it will be useful for sure.

A friend has just loaned me an AT4054 and AT4055 to try. I haven't had a chance to hear them yet, but I'm hoping one of them will be a good alternative on brighter, harsher voices....any coments on either of these?

-Z-

[Remoteness]

I usually like to place a foam pop filter in my KMS105s.
It helps prevent 'plosions and it dampens the top end a bit.

[Sounds Great]

I second the AKG C535eb. This is a great live vocal microphone that can also be used for a lot of other things.

[Remoteness]

I'm not sure if it was a eb but we used a C535 on Joe Jackson's vocals for "Summer in the City: Live in New York" live ablum...

I liked the sound of that mic. It worked very well for his vocal.
We tried other mics but his C535 sounded the best on his vocals. It worked well in monitor world too. It was their "go to" mic for his vocals back when we recorded those shows.

"Summer in the City: Live in New York"



.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I second the AKG C535eb. This is a great live vocal microphone that can also be used for a lot of other things.

Is the C535eb overly bright, or more natural?

-Z-

[jenkel16]

I'm partial to a SM86. It has the same tone and clarity of the 87 minus the hyper cardiod tail. The SM 87c is a cardiod version of the 87 but I've found that there are still a few feedback issues with it.

[aussie_techie]

SM87C? i dont believe there is such a mic, at least not in current production.
the SM87A is a super-cardioid not a hyper-cardioid