Grace Spacebar gets a major makeover

[hughesmr]

Check this out. What happpened to the 30cm option?

Spacebar Modular Microphone Positioners

[Dale]

Spacebar Stereo Microphone Positioners

try this page.

[PlugHead]

Why can't DPA/AEA/Grace/Atlas etc. manufacture something that common folk can afford?

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

Why are all the manufacturers of these very simple systems charging a friggin arm and a leg for what should cost pennies on the dollar?!?

Sure, someone has to eat, but - can't DPA/AEA/Grace/Atlas etc. manufacture something that common folk can afford?

We need a machinist in our midst (who has motives other than fleecing the public!?!) that can manufacture these items at a cost that's 'reasonable' to the recording public - folks that aren't on bloated budgets, or working with clientele with overly deep pockets...

As usual, Chinese versions are dirt cheap (eg. the bar that Cascade sells), but I presume there isn't enough demand for them to be made en masse there.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Dale

Spacebar Stereo Microphone Positioners

Thanks ... missed that one.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

Why are all the manufacturers of these very simple systems charging a friggin arm and a leg for what should cost pennies on the dollar?!?

It *doesn't* cost pennies and that's the point.

These bars are high quality engineered products that are made to a high standard in small quantities and are priced accordingly.

All the manufacturers that make high quality bars like this all come out at a similar price - just down to the cost of design and manufacture.

They are *not* cheap Chinese cr*p - and not the thing you could easily get manufactured in China anyway, as the quantities are small.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by John Willett

It *doesn't* cost pennies and that's the point.

And it doesn't cost $300+ to manufacture a rod with with metric measurements on it either - unless of course you're making only one, and at that price I expect they won't sell much more than that...

Nice item, but way too pricey for my pocketbook...

[JonesH]

Also, check out Ueli from Soundworx Stereoschiene.ch. They are very nice and come at a fair price. Just got two 1m for meself and combos of 80cm and 100cm for the school where I study.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

And it doesn't cost $300+ to manufacture a rod with with metric measurements on it either - unless of course you're making only one, and at that price I expect they won't sell much more than that...

Nice item, but way too pricey for my pocketbook...

I have to agree. I would love to have a bar with the measurements on it, but a "normal" stereo bar, a ruler, and a protractor are far cheaper.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We have made or had made most of our stereo and Decca Tree microphone holding assemblies. They do not have measurements on them but they also don't cost $600 to make. If I was in a position that I had to have precision measurements so I could reset everything every time EXACTLY the same then the more costly positioning bars would probably be worth it but most of of the stuff we record is one offs and we DON'T have to reset it day after day. What ever works for you and you can afford USE IT!

[mpdonahue]

I have to admit that I'm a little bit spoiled, having a machine shop here in the studio to make all the little adapters and bars we need to do our job.
But, if you think you can make your own for less money than most of these, you will be very surprised how much it actually costs in material and time to make these things.
I make 70 and 100mm stereo bars with 5/8" 27 threaded holes every 10 CM and it still takes me about an hour each, and that is with a tapping head permanently mounted on an old Grizzley milling machine for threading the holes.
Additionally the engraving and anodizing on each bar costs about $30.
These guys aren't getting rich building these things, that's for sure. But cost no object, I'd have to say that the Grace is a very elegant implementation.

All the best,
-mark

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

And it doesn't cost $300+ to manufacture a rod with with metric measurements on it either - unless of course you're making only one, and at that price I expect they won't sell much more than that...

Nice item, but way too pricey for my pocketbook...

Of course it does not cost $300 to make.

But it's a lot more than just a rod with measurements on and you also have to take account of design costs, tooling, etc... as well as distributor margins and a normal profit margin.

Yes, it's not cheap, but neither are similar units from Schoeps, DPA and Gefell - they are all high quality and well engineered and all come in at a similar price.

And if you compare it with a shockmount from some of the major microphone companies, it seems cheap at the price.

Happy Christmas.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

We need a machinist in our midst {snip} that can manufacture these items at a cost that's 'reasonable' to the recording public...

Anyone out there reading this? I bet a few fellow slutz will come to the table if someone can build a similar rigging for $100-150 USD?

[mfischman3]

Maybe a dealer that carries this specific product can step forward and let us know what the mark-up is just at the retail end?

I just love seeing the "folks don't get rich selling gear" quote - or similar- all the time on GS. I don't deal with this particular item, but I can say that with similar items: stands/mounts/adaptors there's a bit of money being made all around.

[roonsbane]

I finally got fed up and made my own. It breaks into two pieces for moving and is very flexible and sturdy. I hope this upload works



I went to the hardware store and used conduit as well as plumbing joints. I shrunk wrapped both the 2 meter and 1 and 1/2 meter bar and it all works like a charm. I use it often and it is shown on it's maiden flight in my back yard last summer supporting an SF24 (Still in its Mic condom) an 2 Schoeps CMC6/MK5's. I use one of those really large AKG Stands and whenever people will be walking around it use sandbags as well. I hope this inspires.
Cameron

[boojum]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I finally got fed up and made my own. It breaks into two pieces for moving and is very flexible and sturdy. I hope this upload worksAttachment 149729

Attachment 149730

I went to the hardware store and used conduit as well as plumbing joints. I shrunk wrapped both the 2 meter and 1 and 1/2 meter bar and it all works like a charm. I use it often and it is shown on it's maiden flight in my back yard last summer supporting an SF24 (Still in its Mic condom) an 2 Schoeps CMC6/MK5's. I use one of those really large AKG Stands and whenever people will be walking around it use sandbags as well. I hope this inspires.
Cameron

Excellent. And, yes, inspiring. I plan to build a featherweight version for a trio of 4061's. Probably out of carbon fiber and the carbon fiber stand described on this board in this forum to carry the Decca Tree. I needed that nudge.

[DCtoDaylight]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I went to the hardware store and used conduit as well as plumbing joints. Cameron

Nice work! Thanks for sharing.

Is that black iron pipe you used, like gas pipe?

[roonsbane]

DCToDaylight asked:

Is that black iron pipe you used, like gas pipe?

I painted the t joint black and the bars have black shrink wrap around them. I made them extremely secure for obvious reason's. Everything has a secondary safety lock with a machine screw that is not coming out to make sure nothing can fall. The two bolts with the lock nuts come apart and the one bar slips out of the end of the two meter bar for easy transport.

The thing that these manufacturers need to realize comes right out of the Pampers example from our high school economics 101 class. You will sell 5 at a price of $200 for every one you sell at $675 or more. And as you do, your manufacturing costs will go from say $50.00 to $35.00 That's an increased profit of $375 to begin with and it only gets better once you sell more. Start selling even more and suddenly your profits go way up real fast.

At this point. I am all set. My tree rocks!. This has been a huge problem solver for those locations in which I really can only put a single microphone stand dead center in the middle isle. It goes up quicker and I made a custom multi pair mogami snake for a cleaner look. Also, it is flexible and beefy enough to hold many different setups and the whole thing cost me less than $15.00 plus the Atlas clamps that I already had. Plus it looks great! It's a lot less intrusive than the three Atlas stands with the extensions pieces on them that each audience member in the front row felt the need to kick at least once during the quietest passages of each piece.

Cameron

[PlugHead]

BTW,

Sorry to hijack this thread - the Grace Spacebar is really a classy looking unit, I'm just sad that yet another manufacturer keeps their prices high enough to dissuade regular folk from purchasing their products.

BTW - nice job @ roonsbane! I've not run into enough problems using reg. stands for me to make a rig like that, but - I can see it's usefulness right away!

Merry Xmas to all!

[fifthcircle]

Gotta step in here... I thought the Grace Spacebar was overpriced until I bought one.

Sure, it was painful dropping the bux on the big one, but this is absolutely beautiful. It is far more than a bar with a few markings on it. In the pictures, do you see that big center section? It is a perfectly machined joint with a measurement of angle on it. I can only imagine what sort of tollerances this needs to be built to. And that is not cheap to do.

If you don't want to spend the bucks, then that is fine. I cannot argue with it, but to say it isn't worth what they charge and that it is being made for pennies on the dollar is just plain ignorant.

--Ben

[Remoteness]

Well said, Ben...

Thanks for chiming in.

[PlugHead]

As I said earlier, it is a classy looking unit - I'll give it that. I did gander at the centre section, and that was what I thought might be the only thing that warrants the entrance price, but even that AFAIC is too steep...

I'll rescind my earlier comment - don't want to ruffle feathers just because I think it (and all the others are) overpriced.

Again, sorry to hijack the thread - best wishes to everyone thru the holidays!

[joelpatterson]

That was very graceful, and gracious.

[avebr]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

(...) Sure, it was painful dropping the bux on the big one, but this is absolutely beautiful. It is far more than a bar with a few markings on it. In the pictures, do you see that big center section? It is a perfectly machined joint with a measurement of angle on it. I can only imagine what sort of tollerances this needs to be built to. And that is not cheap to do.

If you don't want to spend the bucks, then that is fine. I cannot argue with it, but to say it isn't worth what they charge and that it is being made for pennies on the dollar is just plain ignorant.
--Ben

+1 I just can say the same.

I've just debuted my stereobar on a theater and studio session these days... piece of cake to set with total precision, even to set up hanging - and I don't have the HB hanging thing (from the new/bigger surround bar)!

Most of the good and best things are expensive... I can't complain on this bar.


all the best,
ave

[fifthcircle]

I'll add to what I wrote earlier... I like it so much that I've seriously been considering purchasing a second, small one. Just being able to set mics with that precision has helped my recordings.

--Ben

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Just being able to set mics with that precision has helped my recordings.

The Grace Spacebar looks very well built, but I seriously doubt if that level of accuracy is needed for mic setup reproduction, especially since there are so many variables when recording on location. E.g. the distance between the mic clamps is different from the distance between capsules if the horizontal mic angle is not exactly 0 degrees.
Out of curiosity: how accurately do you measure your mic setup for future reproduction ?
I think my "score" would be around 5%, but in general "as accurate as reasonably possible"

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

The Grace Spacebar looks very well built, but I seriously doubt if that level of accuracy is needed for mic setup reproduction, especially since there are so many variables when recording on location. E.g. the distance between the mic clamps is different from the distance between capsules if the horizontal mic angle is not exactly 0 degrees.
Out of curiosity: how accurately do you measure your mic setup for future reproduction ?
I think my "score" would be around 5%, but in general "as accurate as reasonably possible"

word.

If having accurate angle readings on the clutch 'makes or breaks' a (distant miced) live recording, I'll eat my shorts.

[fifthcircle]

Perhaps my spacial perception needs work, but I find that when using stereo bars such as the old AKG standby or similar, that the angles of my mics have a tendency to be narrower than they should be. And yes, I find that the angle of the mics is very important- even with micing in a room. (then again, even with distant micing, I still like to have a certain amount of direct sound so yes, that angle is a huge issue)

For example, when I use an "ortf" pair of mics, with some mics that angle is very important. With 8040's in some halls, if that angle is even a bit under 90 degrees, you can have some nasty comb filtering issues between the two mics. Schoeps aren't as sensitive, nor are Neumann. Something about the 8040 benefits from very careful placement including the angle between mics in a stereo setting.

I guess I have about 15 years under my belt now of recording and until just the last couple months, I estimated everything and I did just fine (still had plenty of happy clients). In my quest to further refine my sound, I have found that really being able to get my stereo mic pickups right has been a very valuable tool. I have also found that when I experiment in stereo mic techniques to know exactly what I have done so I can do it again if I like it is very valuable as well.

When it comes to future reproduction, 5% is usually fine. I find that the day to day differences in room sound are a much larger issue in multi-day sessions. The way sound travels when the humidity and temperature are different are pretty different and the effect of that on a room is the feeling of ambience and immediacy of sound.

--Ben

[roonsbane]

At my last place of employment I have had 3 of the AEA 1 meter bars plus the really nice DPA bar at my disposal. I certainly don't feel that my repeatability has suffered not having them available. I do feel pretty space-ially perceptive and bet I am consistently within 4 degrees of repeatability. I tend to use NOS over ORTF which would be a bit more difficult to find. On the other hand NOS is very easy to setup, especially after you do it once with a pair of mics. Once the two mics are on the bar hold one mic to the horizon and you will clearly see the 90 degree angle. Then just double check the 12 inch distance capsule to capsule. Using DPA 4011's for instance the two XLR connectors will be butt to butt. I also love the "OnStage" bar that lets you move the pair's angle to the horizon on a pivot point once set without having to reset the mics to get them right.

The angle of the omni's is much less important (but not unimportant). Once the librarian has put the music out on the stands, I sometimes sit around in various seats in the orchestra and try and determine what I may want to actually aim the omnis at to bring out some added clarity. I am also thinking of course about the front to back ratio, (hight of main pair) and how this will work on each of the usually three pieces. Also, which instruments have an advantage. Not always an easy task. When on a recording session just make sure you don't forget the tape measure and protractor if you are worried along with a digital camera and notebook.
Cameron

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Gotta step in here... I thought the Grace Spacebar was overpriced until I bought one.

Sure, it was painful dropping the bux on the big one, but this is absolutely beautiful. It is far more than a bar with a few markings on it. In the pictures, do you see that big center section? It is a perfectly machined joint with a measurement of angle on it. I can only imagine what sort of tollerances this needs to be built to. And that is not cheap to do.

If you don't want to spend the bucks, then that is fine. I cannot argue with it, but to say it isn't worth what they charge and that it is being made for pennies on the dollar is just plain ignorant.

--Ben

So true, its built quality is amazing. Cheaper than some plugins!
Lets put it this way, you need 3 stands for a Decca Treeish configuration. If you get the Grace Tree then you only need one stand, save some $ and you are even.

Pupo