Grace Spacebar gets a major makeover

[roonsbane]

Pupo said:

Lets put it this way, you need 3 stands for a Decca Treeish configuration

Or you could go to the hard ware store spend the $15.00 plus atlas clamps and build something along the lines of what I did. The grace may be beautiful up close but lets face it, no one beyond row 10 can see that detail and that leaves 90 percent of the audience not knowing the difference. That leaves you paying for perhaps a lighter weight and the markings which given minimal measuring devices can be checked anyway. The groups I work with were happy when I switched to the one stand instead of three. And it my makes my setup go up way faster.

Personally I think a lot more people would buy the grace (myself included) if it were half the price. And this would make up for the difference in cost to the manufacturer and ultimately profit. Though I feel like I am fairly skilled in a metal workshop, maybe I am totally wrong in this case? By the way, I like Michael Grace a lot. He has always been a very helpful nice guy.
Cameron

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Pupo said:

Or you could go to the hard ware store spend the $15.00 plus atlas clamps and build something along the lines of what I did. The grace may be beautiful up close but lets face it, no one beyond row 10 can see that detail and that leaves 90 percent of the audience not knowing the difference. That leaves you paying for perhaps a lighter weight and the markings which given minimal measuring devices can be checked anyway. The groups I work with were happy when I switched to the one stand instead of three. And it my makes my setup go up way faster.

Personally I think a lot more people would buy the grace (myself included) if it were half the price. And this would make up for the difference in cost to the manufacturer and ultimately profit. Though I feel like I am fairly skilled in a metal workshop, maybe I am totally wrong in this case? By the way, I like Michael Grace a lot. He has always been a very helpful nice guy.
Cameron

I am not paying for the guy on the 10th row. I am paying for what I think is a GREAT product, for myself to enjoy it. So you go the hardware store, I get the space bar. Then we both r happy! Instead of buying an 1176 or even an LA2A you can also build it yourself or buy a clone, in my case, I prefer to buy the real thing. Different strokes I guees.
Cheers,
Pupo

[fifthcircle]

Don't care about the audience and I certainly don't care what they think it looks like.

What I *do* care about is how good my recordings are and anything that helps them is a good thing.

Now, as I said before, if you don't feel like you need it, fine. If it is more than you think should be spent, fine. But machine work of this quality costs money. If I went to a machine shop with plans and all, I would not be able to make something like this for much less. If I had to pay them to design the build plans, it would certainly cost a heck of a lot more. That is just the plain brutal truth when it comes to manufacturing at this level of quality.

Some years back, I designed some microphone hangers that are really cool and are self-leveling. I looked into the manufacturing costs and in the end, I decided that it would never make money. People wouldn't be willing to pay what it costs to make something like this with the manufacturing that I could come up with. I still have my 3 prototypes, but most likely never will anything else be built.

It is unfortunate to see the walmart mentality on GS. It isn't a surprise, though.

--Ben

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I have a good friend who is a machinist. I just had him do some machining work for me. It was building a jib boom for our video camera. He did a beautiful job on it. He not only had to build it he had to design it as well. I trade him recording time for machining time and let him set the rate at which he charges me. Lets just say I will be doing a lot of recording for him for his help in machining.

A while back I wanted some meter holes cut into a 19" relay rack panel and it was done by another machinist. For two meter holes and 8 mounting holes he charged me $95. It was not that complicated but he does everything with a NC milling machine and it took him some time to get all the coordinates punched in. If I was having 150 panels made up the time he took for the setup could be amortized over 150 panels but for one panel it was a lot.

Good quality work is never cheap.

[roonsbane]

Wallmart mentality? Many of us have invested $100,000 plus into gear and that does not include schooling. I don't think any of us making a career out of this could be accused of having a Walmart mentality with most of the great microphones costing as much as the cars most people drive. Making a one off in a metal shop is usually much more expensive, but that misses the point of selling in quantity. As Thomas said:

If I was having 150 panels made up the time he took for the setup could be amortized over 150 panels but for one panel it was a lot.

Maybe the numbers just aren't there for that kind of price break. My feeling is that there is.

I missunderstood Pupo. I thought when he said:

Lets put it this way, you need 3 stands for a Decca Treeish configuration. If you get the Grace Tree then you only need one stand, save some $ and you are even.

I thought he were saying using three stands or buying the fancy bars are your only option and I just want folks to know that they can make a very sturdy decca system fairly easily. It goes without saying everyone can spend the money on the expensive bar and if it helps you that's fine. Having had access to the fancy bars in the past, I don't feel like it's it worth it personally for me. My friend spent over a thousand bucks on an 8 pair silver conductor snake. I thought there were better ways to spend his money but he felt it helped him make a better recording so I never even argued with him.

And now back to making music.
Cameron

[PlugHead]

I did not take offense to being called 'ignorant' the last round, as, without using the actual Grace SpaceBar, I should not slag it, but - I DO take offense to being herded into a "WalMart' consumer mentality.

I spent a fortune on my mics, pre's, and at one time DAW HW/SW. I don't hesitate to spend top dollar on gear that makes a 'definitive' difference to my recordings.

That said, I cannot see how a (minimum of) $300 bar will take my game a significant step up when all I really need is another stand or 2, and a bit of extra time setting up and measuring.

If that bar was more like 1/2 it's current price, I might entertain purchasing it, but AFAIC, it's overpriced for my needs, thus my expression for wanting someone out there to put a 'cost-effective' alternative on the market - I hardly think I'm alone in that sentiment.

I appreciate your knowledge Ben, and the many others here - you have been a great help when I've asked questions, PM'd you for your advice, and so on - but I'm offended at your choice to demean the folks here (or otherwise) that call for an alternative to overpriced items such as this...

[joelpatterson]

I may have a Walmart mentality but I have a Cadillac attitude!

[David Spearritt]

This thread seems to be quite similar to the Schoeps vs Rode thread. Basic premise being, is it worth spending money on name brands or quality in a great example of the law of diminishing returns.

I think the diminishing returns is limited to perhaps only the sonics in the case of the mics, and only the positioning in the case of the mic bars.

But the important things, and what I am happy to pay a premium for are reliability, ergonomics, time saving aspects (quicker to setup Grace bar repeatedly), higher quality components that don't rust over time, caps that don't explode or bulge or breakdown, materials that don't tarnish or scratch easily, that don't have sharp corners that rip other gear in the bag, threads that don't strip, mic capsule material that is inert over decades, clamps that don't slip or klunk in the middle of a concert, in short just better quality engineering all round.

Building and dumbing down to a price is one of the big things that's wrong with the world at present. I want stuff that lasts and lasts and repays the investment many times over.

A mic has just got to pop once in a concert, or a clamp fail just once in a unique concert and you're completely finished as a professional. We get once chance at most of these gigs, pay for the insurance of getting quality gear.

It's never just about sonics.

[Don S]

Like many here, I own thousands of dollars worth of pre amps and high end SDC mics. I'll admit I spent only about 89 dollars on my bar and unfortunately it looks that way as well. I've been meaning to upgrade the bogen triple mic holder modified with military grade aluminum tubing to 40 inches with homemade spacers.
Most people in a concert situation are only going to see what I'm doing and may not look beyond my bar. This can be rectified for only $400! Yes, it will help me make better recordings via more accurate placement. But why have 4 grand worth of mics sitting on a $89 bar?

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Don S

But why have 4 grand worth of mics sitting on a $89 bar?

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Don S

But why have 4 grand worth of mics sitting on a $89 bar?

Yeah, I can see four grand worth of mics on a $50.00 to 60.00 bar, but $89.00 USD...

Come on; you got to be kidding me.

[John Willett]

Personally I bought the Grace SpaceBar for speed and accuracy.

I can set up an ORTF pair accurately in about 40 seconds with the Grace as everything is accurately marked.

With an un-marked bar it is more fiddly and time consuming and Grace's competitors at a similar quality are all a similar price.

It is certainly not over-priced for what it is - but there are plenty of cheaper bars around if you want such things. But it's interesting that everyone who designs a quality bar ends up at a similar price point.

Anyway - I like just good engineering.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by John Willett

It is certainly not over-priced for what it is - but there are plenty of cheaper bars around if you want such things. But it's interesting that everyone who designs a quality bar ends up at a similar price point.

Bingo.

And as much as I wanted to let things drop, since I've put so many folks panties in a bunch, I should probably respond. The same folks bitching about cost then brag about their $100,000 rigs. Those that say it is too expensive and should cost a fraction of what it does (and are speaking out of ignorance, because they obviously know nothing of manufacturing process and the expense of precision machining)...

Let's put the lines of reasoning into mics or preamps... Why use a Neumann or a Schoeps or a Milennia preamp? After all Behringer costs pennies on the dollar in comparison. Sounds pretty rediculous doesn't it? And hence my Walmart comment from before.

--Ben

[roonsbane]

Ben,

I think your analogy doesn't work really at all. One is about sonics on which we are not willing to compromise, and one is convenience/light weight/looks/and for some, acuracy of placement. Some of us might be able to skimp on these things. Again given time and care some can be as acurate with the black unmarked bar as you can with your fancy bar. I believe the bar I made is atleast as strong as the fancy one and has secondary safety measures (heavy duty steel bolts with a wing nut) built in to each connection. It is a steel bar and steel is less brittle than aluminum. It could possibly hold twenty pounds on all three ends if there was a stand that could hold it all. The clutch on the stand could be just as much a weak link in the chain. Besides taking out one of our starbird stands, the big heavy AKG is about as solid as you can get.
Occasionally, I am A-B-ing pairs of Neuman's DPA's and Schoeps as well as putting up surround pairs for Neural encoded stuff all on the same tree. So I am trusting it with a huge amound of money in mics along with the possibly much more expensive liability if the tree fell on someone It is stable, and it goes up fast and accurately. I would not take a chance if I did not trust it. Of course ultimately some patron could still be clueless, not looking wear they are going and fall into either yours or my mic stands holding the tree up and take the whole thing down. That would suck! This is what the sand bags on the huge mic stand is for.
Why does the price of the bar matter at all. People put rediculously expensive mics on those $15.00 atlas bars all of the time. The ultimate question is, will the mics be safe?

You have already made the plunge and for you it has been an improvement. I doubt the angle and distance markings will have that quantitative an improvement with everyone.
Walmart is the antichrist!
Cameron

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Ben,

I think your analogy doesn't work really at all. One is about sonics on which we are not willing to compromise, and one is convenience/light weight/looks/and for some, acuracy of placement. Some of us might be able to skimp on these things.

+1

I'm out - but before parting, I'll say this - I'll gladly invest in a LatchLake MicKing stand ANYDAY as that product shows a greater value FOR ME and my gear than the SpaceBar ever could. I really do like looking at it, and think it to be a useful tool, I suspect I'll never buy one.

All jabs aside, I do agree with Ben - if the product meets your needs and appears to worth its entry price, then go for it - you are the only one who determines 'value' as the customer.

cya!

[da burf]

while I'm currently waiting for delivery of a Grace Spacebar 30, I might also take the plunge on this thing:
Superlux MA 90 B | Feedback Muziek

seems to be kind of a spacebar knock-off for 13% of the price and it's 40cm instead of the 30 of the Grace.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by da burf

while I'm currently waiting for delivery of a Grace Spacebar 30, I might also take the plunge on this thing:
Superlux MA 90 B | Feedback Muziek

seems to be kind of a spacebar knock-off for 13% of the price and it's 40cm instead of the 30 of the Grace.

NICE! Exactly what I was looking for! thumbsup

Looks like an affordable alternative - thank you for providing that link!

[roonsbane]

Originally Posted by da burf
while I'm currently waiting for delivery of a Grace Spacebar 30, I might also take the plunge on this thing:
Superlux MA 90 B | Feedback Muziek

seems to be kind of a spacebar knock-off for 13% of the price and it's 40cm instead of the 30 of the Grace.

Nice! This really does prove that it could be done for a lot less. The only thing we are missing is the piece that connects the two bars and a larger bar. This is not rocket science.
Cameron

[da burf]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Nice! This really does prove that it could be done for a lot less. The only thing we are missing is the piece that connects the two bars and a larger bar. This is not rocket science.
Cameron

I will report back when I've got both the Grace and the Superlux at my place...

[PlugHead]

I just emailed Avlex/Superlux in the US to find out about retailers/distribution - hopefully will find out after the long weekend...

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Nice! This really does prove that it could be done for a lot less. The only thing we are missing is the piece that connects the two bars and a larger bar. This is not rocket science.
Cameron

I still agree, Cameron. If Grace were to price their bar at a lower point then they might sell more. But if it were "cheap" those that are already familiar with Grace Designs might not take it seriously and look over it. And still, if it was priced between the one listed here and others (like the AEA or DPA) there would be some that would want to spend the money on the "good" ones and some that would go the "cheap" route, leaving them out of the game completely. It's a judgement call.

They are obviously selling some, and since it's still available they must be doing well enough to keep manufacturing them. It's only conjecture to say whether they would sell more at a lower price point. I think so, but that's only my not-that-educated opinion (although, I would buy one if it were half the price).

[resound]

PlugHead, please post back here with what you find out. I'm very interested in hearing about the quality of that alternative.

[audibell]

I suppose this SuperLux thing is 69 Euros and it's mostly metallic, unlike OnStage stand parts. There is no doubt that these bars and their 5/8" 27tpi fittings can be made cheaper than the $US 300 - 500 range but you can't bend the laws of chemistry any more than the laws of physics. The alloys these cheap parts are made from are fine for a year or two's use but don't expect them to last beyond Windows XP. Good material and its machining just costs more than mass-produced pot metal.

I routinely change the threaded pieces of any Chinese stand with stainless nuts and bolts from HomeSchleppo, as soon as I buy them. As DavidS pointed out, economy gear falls apart, strips, cracks, bends, etc and usually while there are Mums, Dads and Auntie Glads sitting nearby. In a studio setting, this would be less critical but for us remote-sters, one injury lawsuit and you're selling your bijoux mics on eBay. There's a reason those baby and mini light studs always seem to come with a little wire thingy attached with a loop/eye. Aethetics and long-life are a strong reason to spend money but structural integrity is most important for me.

I favor AEA for bars and bits but like roonsbane, I have fabricated my own sturdier system for holding the arrays aloft; I use shot bag diving weights to lower the center of gravity and custom snakelets to get the signals neatly down and away. If you check out the "machined from aircraft aluminum" parts that video people routinely use, we're doing pretty well to hang our gear as modestly as we do.
rgds
WalterT

[Daniel Stark]

I don't see how it's overpriced, $295 at sweetwater for the 33 cm seems like a great deal. for something that would get used every session, in a crucial spot, i want one.

Any ideas on a good simple mic stand to go with it ? I'm using an Onstage one right now.

[KINGSWAY]

I was able to evaluate the Grace Decca Tree whilst I was in Banff earlier
this year. The quality of engineering is obvious and the ability to accurately
replicate angles,so easily, is most welcome.
The need to replicate microphone setups is often a point of discussion.
In some forty years of recording experience,dealing with the best of artists
and conductors, I can only welcome a system that allows such accuracy of
microphone setup and subsequent replication, thus saving valuable setup time.
Please believe me, accuracy of placement really does matter, with a tree
of M50s very much a question of degrees.