Gainstaging with outboard pre's - HELP

[springer]

OK I have been using the R44 for about a year now and very impressed with it's onboard pres and AD. My confusion starts when I use an additional Preamp. When I use either a DAV or TRP I use the 1/4" TRS inputs on the R44. I turn the outer knob all the way counter-clockwise (keeping the middle knob at 12 o'clock). I have to turn up the pre really far to get signal anywhere above -20dB. If I turn up the pre too much it either distorts at the pre or distorts the input of the R44. My only recourse is to turn the outer knob thus defeating the purpose of using the outboard pre.
Now this is no problem with something like the HD24XR, but with units that already have un-bypassable preamps.
Any help or is this the nature of the beast?

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by springer

OK I have been using the R44 for about a year now and very impressed with it's onboard pres and AD. My confusion starts when I use an additional Preamp. When I use either a DAV or TRP I use the 1/4" TRS inputs on the R44. I turn the outer knob all the way counter-clockwise (keeping the middle knob at 12 o'clock). I have to turn up the pre really far to get signal anywhere above -20dB. If I turn up the pre too much it either distorts at the pre or distorts the input of the R44. My only recourse is to turn the outer knob thus defeating the purpose of using the outboard pre.
Now this is no problem with something like the HD24XR, but with units that already have un-bypassable preamps.
Any help or is this the nature of the beast?

If you have the outer knob full counter clockwise it is attenuating the signal from the pre.
Set the proper gain on the external pre first.
Then set the gain on the Edirol per the manual.

[DannyL]

According to the specifications the R44 can accept a signal up to +24dbu.

EDIROL R-44 4-channel Portable Recorder :: Specifications

Set the input level control to the +4 position. Turn off the 48v phantom!

From page 79 of the pdf manual:

● Nominal Input Level
11 steps:+4,-2-,8,-14,-20,-26,-32,-38,-44,-50,-56
(Input Level Knob: Center)
Input Level Knob: negative infinity to +8 dBu

Danny

[NorseHorse]

DannyL is correct. The outer knob should be fully counter-clockwise. It is then anticipating a +4 signal.

+4 = LINE IN, for both XLR and TRS.

Having run preamps from a number of manufactures into the R-44 via XLR and TRS, I've never had a problem, and I've never noticed a difference in how much gain is needed on the pre with or without the R-44. Your description seems to indicate that:

A) The inner knob (digital gain) is not at Noon.
B) If the inner knob is at Noon, it's busted.

Might either of these be correct? We'll get to the bottom of this!

PS. I love your SF12 piano clamp!

[mixedupsteve]

The manual says to start at +4 and turn clockwise until the clip indicator shows (LR CHAN) and then back down 1 click. Then adjust the level knob to the recording level you want as indicated on the meter.
As far as defeating the purpose of the external pre, your not, the signal still goes through the opamp of the edirol anyway.

Maybe your limiter is engaged or you just have a low output preamp.

How does your preamp work/sound with other gear??

[NorseHorse]

With all due respect, the whole purpose of running a top-shelf pre before the R-44 is so you don't use any gain from the R-44 (though it has pretty good preamps to begin with - both Springer and I have posted comparisons on the board). The more gain you use from the R-44, the less the external preamp's character (and probably lower noise floor) is contributing to the sound.

You should not under any circumstances need to have the outer knob (analog gain) at any position other than +4 when running from another preamp. (EDIT: Unless it's a low output preamp like MixedUpSteve mentioned! I doubt the DAV or TRP fall into this category.)

The instructions you refer to are the generic ones for people who have never used a recorder or board before. For instance, it really isn't a good idea to use the inner level knob because it can a) cause digital clipping when it's turned up and b) unwittingly cause analog clipping when it's turned down, because the meters didn't reflect the actual dBu, causing the user to turn up the gain too much.

PS Springer, you didn't have the -20db pad on the DAVs on, did you?

[springer]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for chiming in on this one...
Norse - nope the pads were not in use. It is a weird problem as I notice that there is a very tiny window of gain before distorting I can get to without touching the outer knob. In post I end up pumping levels about 16-18dB which seems excessive. I would like to track with peaks around -12 or so...
What I will end up doing at some point is turning up the outer knob. I get the most frustration from the sf-12, but more experimenting will be needed.
The character of the external pre may still come thru.
Thanks,
patrick

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by springer

Hey Guys,
Thanks for chiming in on this one...
Norse - nope the pads were not in use. It is a weird problem as I notice that there is a very tiny window of gain before distorting I can get to without touching the outer knob. In post I end up pumping levels about 16-18dB which seems excessive. I would like to track with peaks around -12 or so...
What I will end up doing at some point is turning up the outer knob. I get the most frustration from the sf-12, but more experimenting will be needed.
The character of the external pre may still come thru.
Thanks,
patrick

You micpres gain control pot is most likely an audio taper pot. They get more sensitive as you turn them up. I have a homebrew pre that does that myself.
You should check all possible faults with your external pres because it does sound like it's putting out a lowish level. However raising the gain in the Edirol a little bit is not going to subtract from the signal much more than it would if left and the minimum setting. I have many external pres and several interfaces and sometimes I just have to increase the level on the interface a little above unity. It's no big deal.
What Norsehorse said is right about the noise level. You should first set the gain on the external pre using the LEDs or whatever on them to achieve the best signal to noise ratio then set the next gainstage.