Vinyl to digital - best ADCs?

[bde]

Hello there:

My first real post and hopefully I will not be eaten alive for my incompetence

I have a fairly good turntable system and thinking of digitizing many recordings, ranging from rock, classical, dance.

I currently have unbalanced phono/preamp (Tom Evans gear) with RCA terminations. I've borrowed a tascam cd recorder from a friend it has 24 bit ad and i think it does a pretty good job @ 16/44.1 (I haven't tested higher since cd recorder doesn't support higher than that.

What I'm wondering is how much of an improvement can I get out of audio if I get a good ADC like Forsell madc-2 or dad ax24 or dcs904 let's say. What are we looking at in terms of sound improvement and how will it be possible to introduce an XLR balanced ADC design into my unbalanced system without losing sound fidelity, and then where would I route the output of the ADC- pc?

Any ideas? I know this sounds like grade 1 101 for many of you, but I would appreciate some help

Thank you!

[UpNSmoke]

[Surbitone]

Look at Benchmark, Lynx, Prism, Lavry, Weiss, Forsell, Apogee etc.. They're all in the 'mastering grade' ball-park and any of them will most definitely be an improvement over the tascam. Yes you could run un-balanced into the AD btw.

NB. This has been convered numerous times in other threads. Try having a quick search before posting up a new thread, this way, one can avoid emoticons such as the one above, being posted in response to your OP. thumbsup

[AlexK]

Unless you're having issues with the noise shelf, I wouldn't worry about balanced vs. unbalanced connections - unbalanced will do fine.

I don't know about Tascam, but I have a Phillips CD recorder which has surprisingly good ADC/DAC. Limited however, as you say, by 16 bit 44.1k CD. I'd go into a PC digitally using a good converter (any of your choice - audition them beforehand if possible).

You'll also need a good DAC for playback. I'm a big fan of RME's converters, although all their stuff features more inputs/outputs than you want. Apogee are another popular choice, and they have far more prosumer offerings (the Duet would be applicable for your needs, just avoid the phantom power).

I personally find Apogee conversion to be a little overly warm and not as upfront and transparent as say, the RME offerings, but that's all personal choice. I really do think the differences you're going to encounter from different converters is negligible in comparison to many other factors in a hifi, particularly when a turntable is involved (where small changes in the system can have a huge affect on the sound).

I wouldn't personally spend weeks over choosing your converters. I know if I was in a hifi store I'd be given the tutt

[bde]

Thanks for your replies folks-I'll check on your converter recommendations!- I'll use the search as was noted

One question though how can you run Rca's into xlr on conveter? What do you need? I have fairly expensive rca interconnects and want to keep them)

Thanks again!

[Piedpiper]

What's your table/arm/cartridge? Is it set up optimally? The fornt end will have much more effect than the converters. BTW, another more affordable but very good converter option would be a used Mytek Stereo 96 ADC for well under $1k. For redbook CD quality, you won't do much better at any price. If you want to get fancy, you can record to a DAW at 24 bit and bunk it down to 16 bit afterwards, especially useful if you want to do any processing to it to "clean it up". Of course, this all begs the question of why you would be doing this if you have a nice turntable.

[bde]

Thanks for the reply Piedpiper!

I currently have ja michell gyro se with origin live silver and musicmaker classic cart fed into tom evans preamps using rca dh labs interconnects. All professionally set with very good precision)

[Surbitone]

Then look at the Mytek or Lynx offerings. They seem to be very true to the source, short of shelling out for a Lavry Gold.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by bde

Thanks for the reply Piedpiper!

I currently have ja michell gyro se with origin live silver and musicmaker classic cart fed into tom evans preamps using rca dh labs interconnects. All professionally set with very good precision)

So why are you not then content to listen to your vinyl as it was meant to be? Is this for archiving purposes?

[bde]

Mytek indeed has nice offerings for a far cheaper price- I should look locally for some units to demo soon hopefully!)

Indeed, the conversion is just for archival purposes as I have a bunch of vinyl records which weren't published to cd)

[Plush]

For your work, an inexpensive 16 bit converter will work just fine. LP playback is equivalent to 12 bit resolution. You could record your LP to a 24 bit file but it is overkill.

Don't spend a lot of money on this converter because it will not offer you better sound for what you are doing.

It would be far better to keep improving your hi-fi system than to ever digitize your LP collection and listen to it that way. Playing your LP off of your high quality turntable is the superior way to do it.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by bde

Thanks for your replies folks-I'll check on your converter recommendations!- I'll use the search as was noted

One question though how can you run Rca's into xlr on conveter? What do you need? I have fairly expensive rca interconnects and want to keep them)

Thanks again!

Neutrik NA2MPMF Male XLR to Female RCA Connector, Wired | Full Compass

[Kayo]

Originally Posted by Surbitone

Look at Benchmark, Lynx, Prism, Lavry, Weiss, Forsell, Apogee etc.. They're all in the 'mastering grade' ball-park and any of them will most definitely be an improvement over the tascam. Yes you could run un-balanced into the AD btw.

NB. This has been convered numerous times in other threads. Try having a quick search before posting up a new thread, this way, one can avoid emoticons such as the one above, being posted in response to your OP. thumbsup

Most of the ones mentioned above, are great!
Years ago, I owned a Yamaha Digital mixer with Mlan on it. It was good, went up to 96k too.. Then, I bought a RME800 Fireface, and boom!! The difference was like night and day, especially in the low-end capture and resolution. Since, you are going to be dealing with records, with a strong mid channel, a good ADC or DAC, would most definitely be advantageous, and a big improvement on the Tascam…

If possible, try and rent one for the day, maybe, that’s a good start..

KAyo

[bde]

Heya folks:

thanks for multiple replies I'm already researching the issue with more clear goals in my head)

I found good Cardas RCA to XLR converters (thanks for the Neutric suggestion btw)- a bit pricey but I do not want compromise the sound there if I'm potentially spending so much on an adc You guys think Cardas converter adapters are the best for this or you can improve?

Also is there any way to control gain on the adc if it doesn't have gain control or you are stuck with a preamp volume knob apart from purchasing some sort of gain control @ adc level.

the plan is to output digitally to a dvd recorder from adc @24/88.2 or 24/96 and then burn to a dvd or record on internal hd file and import into pc for editing with final output dithered to 16/44.1

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by bde

Heya folks:

thanks for multiple replies I'm already researching the issue with more clear goals in my head)

I found good Cardas RCA to XLR converters (thanks for the Neutric suggestion btw)- a bit pricey but I do not want compromise the sound there if I'm potentially spending so much on an adc You guys think Cardas converter adapters are the best for this or you can improve?

Also is there any way to control gain on the adc if it doesn't have gain control or you are stuck with a preamp volume knob apart from purchasing some sort of gain control @ adc level.

the plan is to output digitally to a dvd recorder from adc @24/88.2 or 24/96 and then burn to a dvd or record on internal hd file and import into pc for editing with final output dithered to 16/44.1

IMHO, the Mytek 96 I mentioned before is your best value. It takes unbalanced inputs when the jumpers are set internally to do so, but you'll still need to make up your own cable RCA to XLR but with the - floating. A normal RCA to XLR will either short the - which will not work in this particular scenario, or will contain an unnecessary transformer that will degrade the sound. If you don't want to make the cables up I'll make some for you using Cardas cable and nice connectors if you like, for a price. PM me.

[mixedupsteve]

You can also make a RCA to balanced XLR adapter cable as follows:

RCA tip to XLR 2
RCA Shell to XLR 3
RCA N/C to shield to XLR 1

[Lemonsqueezer]

Originally Posted by Plush

For your work, an inexpensive 16 bit converter will work just fine. LP playback is equivalent to 12 bit resolution. You could record your LP to a 24 bit file but it is overkill.

equivilant dynamic maybe.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

You can also make a RCA to balanced XLR adapter cable as follows:

RCA tip to XLR 2
RCA Shell to XLR 3
RCA N/C to shield to XLR 1

The Mytek requires a specific configuration when jumpered internally for single ended input, just to reiterate and clarify.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer

equivilant dynamic maybe.

I really enjoy LP playback and I have a good system. However, I am aware that LPs have limited dynamic range and very high noise compared to professional formats. Others should be aware of the same and the OP needs to stop fooling himself with what he requires to get an outstanding transfer of an LP to a file format.

That does not take away from his enjoyment but approaching transfers as a recording scientist one has to be aware of the LP's shortcomings.

Noise and limited dynamic range take the LP down to a 12 bit playback medium at the best. Noise on the LP further compromises it's playback and may take it down to a 10 bit medium.

The OP, in addition to RCA to XLR connectors needs a box that will boost the -10 level of his hi-fi output to the +4 level used by converters and other pro gear. This is usually a box that uses AC power and converts level and impedance.

The use of exotic or expensive adaptors to convert RCA to XLR is a really bad idea and a waste of money. A metal surface is a metal surface and transfer of signal is done very well with any well mated connector. Special wire is also not necessary.

Let's not confuse transfer of LPs played on a turntable to an archive with transfer of open reel tape to an archive. That confusion is what is going on in this thread.

[Lemonsqueezer]

Originally Posted by Plush

Noise and limited dynamic range take the LP down to a 12 bit playback medium at the best. Noise on the LP further compromises it's playback and may take it down to a 10 bit medium.

too funny

apples and oranges.

in terms of dynamic range sure. but you really can't have a clue how the digital medium works. Vinyl is analogue...doh. ...go convert some files to 12 bit and tell me if it sound as good as vinyl!!!! thumbsup

[bde]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

IMHO, the Mytek 96 I mentioned before is your best value. It takes unbalanced inputs when the jumpers are set internally to do so, but you'll still need to make up your own cable RCA to XLR but with the - floating. A normal RCA to XLR will either short the - which will not work in this particular scenario, or will contain an unnecessary transformer that will degrade the sound. If you don't want to make the cables up I'll make some for you using Cardas cable and nice connectors if you like, for a price. PM me.

You really think an RCA to XLR converter can short the input to ADC? In that case what's the point of making those adapters if they won't really help? The thing is, I'm using dh labs revelation cables which run about $300x0.5m per pair and I'd like to utilize their sonic qualities in the future without compromising the playback with other interconnects)

Originally Posted by Plush

The OP, in addition to RCA to XLR connectors needs a box that will boost the -10 level of his hi-fi output to the +4 level used by converters and other pro gear. This is usually a box that uses AC power and converts level and impedance.

What do you mean by the -10 level? Right now I can output regular line level type signal out of my preamp and into tascam cd recorder which doesn't require any gain. In fact, the regular power amp output of my preamp is too hot for tascam and results in clipping so I have to use the buffered recording output on my preamp to avoid the clipping issue. No gain needed. What's the catch with a proper ADC then?

Also any way to adjust input gain into adc? Many ADCs come with no option of gain/level adjustment and if i use buffered recording output on preamp, I can't adjust the gain on it either. Is a pro adc going to be more tolerable with respect to input voltage it can take without clipping the signal?

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by bde

You really think an RCA to XLR converter can short the input to ADC? In that case what's the point of making those adapters if they won't really help? The thing is, I'm using dh labs revelation cables which run about $300x0.5m per pair and I'd like to utilize their sonic qualities in the future without compromising the playback with other interconnects)

You obviously didn't read my post very well. To reiterate and clarify again. The Mytek has the capability of being run single ended input for those circumstances where it is preferable, like this one, where converting to balanced has no advantage and has the disadvantage of an added degrative stage. There are jumpers inside that must be set appropriately for single ended use. When doing so, the XLR jacks are still used but the male jacks on the cable must be wired specifically for this application, with the negative leg unconnected. Got it now?

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer

too funny

apples and oranges.

in terms of dynamic range sure. but you really can't have a clue how the digital medium works. Vinyl is analogue...doh. ...go convert some files to 12 bit and tell me if it sound as good as vinyl!!!! thumbsup

I am not advocating making a 12 bit recording. I am simply describing why a hi-res recording is not necessary to capture ALL the information that an LP offers.

For the OP--hi-fi levels are -10 and professional a/d converters run at +4. This is a 14 dB difference that must be made up somehow. When you mention that you can plug your line output into the TASCAM cd recorder without a step-up amplifier, this is normal operation since both pieces of gear are running at -10.

You have received good advice from PiedPiper about using an a/d that can be set for unbalanced operation. Some a/d converters have gain adjustment on the front panel but most are set for a (user defined ) predetermined level and operated with an intermediate gain stage (mixer.) The two international standards for a/d input sensitivity are the Sony standard, -20dBFS=0VU (.775volts) and the EBU standard which is -18dBFS=0VU. In my experience Mytek gear comes aligned to the -20 standard.

What you need to be aware of is that there is not only a level mismatch but also an impedance mismatch when sending signal from a hi-fi to a piece of studio equipment. That is why I recommend a matching box for level and impedance adjustment. The Aphex 124A is a good one.

[Lemonsqueezer]

Originally Posted by Plush

I am not advocating making a 12 bit recording. I am simply describing why a hi-res recording is not necessary to capture ALL the information that an LP offers.

bit rate accounts for more than just dynamic range. I have already backed up my vinyl. I ABX 16bit vs 24bit. Scored 10/10. Try it for yourself. thumbsup

[dtf]

Originally Posted by Plush

For the OP--hi-fi levels are -10 and professional a/d converters run at +4. This is a 14 dB difference that must be made up somehow.

As far as I understand:

Consumer level -10 dBV (0 dBV = 1 Volt)
Pro Audio level +4 dBu (0 dBu = 0.7746 Volt = approx. 0.775 Volt)

Therefore, you can't compare these two levels, as they have a different reference. The Consumer level of -10 dBV = 0.3162 Volt = -7.78 dBu.

Best,
Dirk

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by bde

You really think an RCA to XLR converter can short the input to ADC? In that case what's the point of making those adapters if they won't really help?

Piedpiper was describing one method of making a unbalanced to balanced adapter. If the adaptor you have in mind has a transformer in it then hopefully it's a really good one but's always better to put less in the signal path so if the manufacturer of the ADC recommends a certain method then I would follow it.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Plush

I am not advocating making a 12 bit recording. I am simply describing why a hi-res recording is not necessary to capture ALL the information that an LP offers.

For the OP--hi-fi levels are -10 and professional a/d converters run at +4. This is a 14 dB difference that must be made up somehow. When you mention that you can plug your line output into the TASCAM cd recorder without a step-up amplifier, this is normal operation since both pieces of gear are running at -10.

You have received good advice from PiedPiper about using an a/d that can be set for unbalanced operation. Some a/d converters have gain adjustment on the front panel but most are set for a (user defined ) predetermined level and operated with an intermediate gain stage (mixer.) The two international standards for a/d input sensitivity are the Sony standard, -20dBFS=0VU (.775volts) and the EBU standard which is -18dBFS=0VU. In my experience Mytek gear comes aligned to the -20 standard.

What you need to be aware of is that there is not only a level mismatch but also an impedance mismatch when sending signal from a hi-fi to a piece of studio equipment. That is why I recommend a matching box for level and impedance adjustment. The Aphex 124A is a good one.

I agree with Lemonsqueezer that there is much more to the fidelity advantages of deeper bit depth than noise floor.

Also, in the scenario I outlined with the Mytek, impedance is accounted for. The reference voltage level may well be a non issue in that the "standard" is irrelevant as there are no "standard" output levels for cartridges nor standard gain for phono preamps. It is likely that the high output of that cartridge coupled with the more than ample gain of the preamp, depending on how it's configured, will be sufficient to drive the Mytek or any other ADC.

Bear in mind that the XLR configuration I described is specific to the Mytek protocol.

[bde]

What can I say? Every day is a new learning day for me)

I shot dh labs an email wondering if they can create RCA/XLR plugs on different sides of their interconnects. I'm just too used to the sound and want to try to keep it this way I'll see what they say.


I also looked over the specs of one A/D chip - can you guys comment on how good it is?

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-...DSA-125686.pdf

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Piedpiper was describing one method of making a unbalanced to balanced adapter. If the adaptor you have in mind has a transformer in it then hopefully it's a really good one but's always better to put less in the signal path so if the manufacturer of the ADC recommends a certain method then I would follow it.

Actually, Mytek recommends going balanced but they have the capability of going single ended when the source requires it, and in this case, I see no advantage to adding even a very good transformer into the path.

[mixedupsteve]

I don't know that specific chip but Burr Brown PCM DA chips do have an analog kind of sound. I like CD players with them the best.