Two different scenarios

[oncloudnine]

Hi everyone!

This is my first post around here. I have two very different scenarios where I would appreciate some advice.

The first one of them is a sort of opera concert with a soprano singer, a piano, a guitar (flamenco) and some dancers stamping with their feet and playing castanets (definitely not good). I already recorded this one but it would be very interesting to have some more ideas about how to approach it. Restrictions: video projections were used during the performance so the position of hanged mics was quite restricted; the soprano was moving quite a bit during the performance so one single spot mic was not going to work for her; very loud stamping and castanet playing was performed with soprano singing. I think this is it. I guess that most of you would say: get your gear and go home. :S

This is what I did: I used a spot mic for the piano (in the centre of the stage), a dynamic spot mic for the guitar (in the right) to avoid stamping and castanets in this one as its sound was the weakest; two hanged mics (in no proper position) for trying to cover the soprano in different positions (didn't work mostly as it got more piano or stamping than voice), two mics outside the stage on the floor in very open position for covering the soprano again as it was the weakest part in the recording. It was not possible to use ORTF with these ones.

The result in the overall was poor as the pieces were very different among each other and the soprano was moving quite a lot when singing. Any ideas? This is already done so I can't change anything but for future events would be great to have some fresh ideas.

The second scenario is a more normal one. A symphony orchestra (50-60 members I guess) and a cello soloist. I could use until 8 mics but I know that they would prefer to reduce mics to 4/5 for aesthetic reasons. The first part is the cello concert and the second an orchestral piece. I would use a spot mic for the cello, a stereo ORTF couple and then I don't know exactly what to do with the other two. What would you do? Position? Role? Any other approaches? And then, for the second part, I would take that spot mic and put it somewhere else, but again, where? what for? As you see, mainly I will cover the whole orchestra with the stereo couple. The auditorium is quite a nice place so that would be a pro for once. I can't hang the ORTF couple and I can't use a big mic stand either. Normal mic stands both sides of the conductor? Then they are not ORTF really any more... I know.

This is already too much for my first thread.

Thanks for any help and best regards,

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Sorry, no off-my-head ideas for scenario one.

Originally Posted by oncloudnine

The second scenario is a more normal one. A symphony orchestra (50-60 members I guess) and a cello soloist. I could use until 8 mics but I know that they would prefer to reduce mics to 4/5 for aesthetic reasons. The first part is the cello concert and the second an orchestral piece. I would use a spot mic for the cello, a stereo ORTF couple and then I don't know exactly what to do with the other two. What would you do? Position? Role? Any other approaches? And then, for the second part, I would take that spot mic and put it somewhere else, but again, where? what for? As you see, mainly I will cover the whole orchestra with the stereo couple. The auditorium is quite a nice place so that would be a pro for once. I can't hang the ORTF couple and I can't use a big mic stand either. Normal mic stands both sides of the conductor? Then they are not ORTF really any more... I know.

ORTF seems good, but if you can't use a large stand, it's not an option. If you need to use two stands next to conductor, you still need to get HIGH (at least 9 ft, preferrably higher when using only the main pair), else you'll hear the first stands of violins and celli very clearly, and the rest will be mud. And you'll probably need a center mic right in front of the director to avoid a center hole. Not sure if he wants that - sometimes putting the stand slightly to the right and using a boom to get the mic centered is better. That would come close to the Decca Tree setup (which would use three pressure omnis, and "start with a height of eleven feet").
If you find a way to use ORTF, you might want to add a pair of flanks, preferrably pressure omnis, and maybe support the woodwind section with another ORTF-ish pair, depending on repertoire and hall.

[oncloudnine]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

ORTF seems good, but if you can't use a large stand, it's not an option. If you need to use two stands next to conductor, you still need to get HIGH (at least 9 ft, preferrably higher when using only the main pair), else you'll hear the first stands of violins and celli very clearly, and the rest will be mud. And you'll probably need a center mic right in front of the director to avoid a center hole. Not sure if he wants that - sometimes putting the stand slightly to the right and using a boom to get the mic centered is better. That would come close to the Decca Tree setup (which would use three pressure omnis, and "start with a height of eleven feet").
If you find a way to use ORTF, you might want to add a pair of flanks, preferrably pressure omnis, and maybe support the woodwind section with another ORTF-ish pair, depending on repertoire and hall.

Hi!

Thanks for the help. I will keep in mind the height of the main mics. It's a pity I can't use a large stand. Actually I didn't even ask but I know this kind of concerts and they are always very concerned about aesthetics. That's why I will not try to work with 8 mics. It's pretty a very good hall so they should have something where to hang mics. That would sort out a lot of problems.

Anyone with ideas for the first scenario??

Best,

Dan

[pkautzsch]

As this Scenario 1 doesn't seem to be a strictly classical gig, why not give the singer a headset, the way they often do it in Musical. That way she can move around as much as she likes, and you can mix that headset signal into the main pair.
Castagnets probably are picked up well enough by a main pair, however you could spot them from a little distance with hypers or even shotguns, keeping the mics low enough so they don't interfere with video. If you want the stomping, put another few mics on the floor. Stage lip.
Stage lip is also where you could place a cardioid every few feet if the singer stays in front and doesn't want a headset.
You might want to stereo spot the piano.
The performance definitely is not the typical classical concert style, so your approach should probably be a non-classical one, too. Multi-miking and using a room main pair to glue it together.

[oncloudnine]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

As this Scenario 1 doesn't seem to be a strictly classical gig, why not give the singer a headset, the way they often do it in Musical. That way she can move around as much as she likes, and you can mix that headset signal into the main pair.
Castagnets probably are picked up well enough by a main pair, however you could spot them from a little distance with hypers or even shotguns, keeping the mics low enough so they don't interfere with video. If you want the stomping, put another few mics on the floor. Stage lip.
Stage lip is also where you could place a cardioid every few feet if the singer stays in front and doesn't want a headset.
You might want to stereo spot the piano.
The performance definitely is not the typical classical concert style, so your approach should probably be a non-classical one, too. Multi-miking and using a room main pair to glue it together.

Hi again!

I did propose the headset but the soprano was not happy to use it as she was changing clothes 5 times during the show and didn't want to struggle with it. That was the best option in my opinion. To have spots for the three important elements and then some main pair just in case you can use it somehow at some point. With the castagnets and the stompings no problem at all as they were picked by any mic quite well and it was not so important musically speaking.

The stage lip option could have worked for those pieces without castagnets and stomping but no good I think if there were some. Also, sometimes she was singing looking at the dancers behind her so not projecting her voice towards the public, so again, not good for the stage lip mics.

Thanks for the help and the brainstorming. I'll keep in mind to approach it as a non-clasical gig.

Best regards,

Daniel

[7rojo7]

#1-Put the transmitter on her under garments in a cloth sack and use an omni lavalier glued to her chest, at this point, back to the audience and all, it's theater
#2 if you can't mic from high, mic from low, in the middle you get lot's of nasty reflections

I did sound for a ballet that had cello violin viola piccolo clarinette and piano with a soprano and much of the dance was very noisy, including flamenco stomping and broomstick banging. The musical director refused to have any mics visible for the soprano, she didn't move though. I spotted th piano and the trio and put a PZM on the floor in front of her, praying that no one would step on it, or trip over it. 1996 Centre Georges Pompidou, horrible sounding theater. I muted it when she wasn't singing.

[oncloudnine]

Hi there,

Thanks for the help. I hope next time I do something like that I can use a headset. If you have so many restrictions it is not really possible to get a decent work. Even in the case of doing any sound reinforcement the headset would be a great advantage and they should use some sound reinforcement (not much, but enough to balance everything).

Thanks again and best regards,

Dan