Lush Without Color: Tube Mic & Tube Preamp

[88man]

For classical piano, I am looking for a Tube Mic and Tube Mic Preamp that's:
- lush without color
- transparent and neutral tone
- decent transient response for piano

My Definition of Lush: larger than life, liquid, velvety, fattening of sound WITHOUT losing clarity, transient response (timbre), or introducing wrong color.

My Definition of Color: change in tonality - nasal, boxy, thick, or thin sound, etc.

The window is very narrow to get it just right between lush and color. I tried the D. W. Fearn VT-2, the it sounded like there was a proximity effect on piano - wrong effect or an issue with transient response?! I tried the Rode K2, just awful - nasal tone (sounded like the Steinway had the flu).

For tube mic preamps, I've been looking at the Earlybird 1.2, ADL600, HV-2B.
For tube mics, I've been looking at Brauner Valvet, but that seems rather expensive at the moment.

I could really use some advice and recommendations for tube mics and tube preamps....
Thanks everyone!

[sonare]

The biggest factors have not been mentioned: the room and the piano. If those aren't right then you can pour an unlimited amount of $$ into gear and still not have "it." You also did not say what your mic budget is, nor whether you plan on 2, 4, or 6 mics.

Rich

[7rojo7]

I have a matched pair of Valvets for sale, serial numbers 639 and 640, they are stupendous mics, worth more than their price, amazingly detailed and quiet. I had the Millennia M2 in my STT-1s and it was nice but didn't have enough gain for ribbons. I had a pair of VM-1s also, there wasn't 'much' difference.
A V76 might be a good choice, V 72 has no gain control, I like RCA but they can be noisy

[soupking]

Sounds like Quad Eight mm61/71 to me. Lush as velvet like tube but more sharp, "solid-state". Not transparent, but not mushy. Anything more transient and I'd start thinking API.

Then into either a large condenser or ribbon mic that fits the source.

And yeah, the piano, room, vibe, mic positioning and comfort/ability of the artist should not be left out.

2 bits,
-soup

[88man]

-The room is a 120ft(L)x50ft(W)x35ft(H) around 210,000cft, vaulted ceiling
-The piano is a Steinway D
-The artist is myself
-Budget less than 12k
-Program material: Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin
-Setup: spaced pair of tube mics about 4-5ft from curve of piano and 6ft high to start. If necessary, I'll use another spaced pair of C414B/XLS on my Avalon AD2022 for reverb.

I'd like to find a combination of tube mics and a tube preamp that will give me lush without color.

7rojo7, did you find the Brauner Valvets to be on the bright side for acoustical instruments? I think there is a peak somewhere above 8kHz?

[7rojo7]

If I ever had a problem with Brauner it was with the VM-1 for vox, too sensitive up close. In omni there's never been any complaint from me (I have 3 PhantomV, superb mic, a pair of VM-1 and a pair of Valvets). At a distance the HF 'bump', which really isn't a bump, it's the overall balance of the mic, is really convenient. It keeps your mind away from the trouble knob.
I was using them with Millennia pre's, I had 4 channels of M2 and 22 channels of HV3D. Detail was no problem, 'Lush' even with solid state pres.
You might want to give a listen to Summit, they're on the cleaner side of the tube designs I've heard.
You're going to have a hard time finding tube mics that are cleaner, quieter and more musical than the Brauner, most other tube mics are knockoffs of famous vintage models.
According to your description of your recording space and proposed mic placement and your preference for an all tube signal path, I would suggest V76 for the pres, they would tame any hi freq issues.
Brauner's amp design is different from others as he uses no negative feedback for linearity and you can hear the difference, more detail. I thought of my VM-1s as a hi fi C-12, rising hi end but much cleaner, no 'sound' of its own. At a distance I wouldn't fiddle with the VM-1, didn't have to. Up close the HF shelf in my STT-1 (-2dB@12k) was sufficient. Lots of vintage designs have a rising hi end

[88man]

Thank you, 7rojo7. You have cleared up any doubt about the Brauner Valvet mics. You're right, I can't find clean, quiet, and musical tube mics from any other manufacturer. Even the Neumann M149 is colored for piano. I will look into Summit and V76 preamps too.

In the beginning however, I'll decide whether I need to buy a tube preamp too?... I may start off with the Brauner Valvets on my Avalon AD2022 and go from there...

I realize that you're in Italy - I just took a "photographic safari" to the Amalfi Coast 3 months ago. Amazing scenery!
Thanks you.

Ciao!

[fifthcircle]

Couple things come to mind...

Pres are the easy part. My go-to for this use are the old Vac Rac preamps. Incredibly detailed and lush, but not lacking on transient response like you get with so many tube pres. Only used them once, but the Millennia tube pre is also very good.

Mics are a bit tougher. My first thought is with Schoeps and their tube mics, the 222 is a great body and you get all the choices of capsules to give you whatever sound you desire. Depending on the instrument, I'd probably start with a MK2 (some flavor depending on how much top end you need) or MK21 capsules. The 221B would be a bit darker, but would also be another great mic. There aren't any large diaphragm mics that come to mind that would fit (I have never used the Brauner). Perhaps the DPA 4041 with a tube body...

Good luck.

-Ben

[vitreouswindows]

The Schoeps 222 is a good choice. Also perhaps a Horch RM2J. One fellow told me he had great results with a pair of AKG C12s (originals) with the Fearn pres - but that would be prohibitively expensive. I believe the mic will make more of a difference than the pre. Best of luck. With your goals you will likely have a splendid recording.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by 88man

...
-The piano is a Steinway D
...

They all sound different. Not a single Steinway D sounds like another one. You have a good tuner/intonator that will shape the sound of the Steinway D ?
Or can you choose between several instruments? I often had the privilege of being consulted by pianists for choosing a Steinway D. It is amazing how big the differences are, when you can A/B them directly.

All the differences the gear makes are rather small in comparison.
For classical piano I have yet to hear a great contemporary recording where true omnis were not part of the setup.
A pair of M50s would be my first attempt at getting a lush sound with good transients. Since good M50s today are hard to find, alternatives for me would be M150, TLM50. Tube sound can be added later...

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

A pair of M50s would be my first attempt at getting a lush sound with good transients.

Good choice. I've a pair of FLEA 50, a clone of the M50. There is a shoot-out with them, a pair of Bauner Valvet and a pair of FLEA 49 (clone of the M49) in the shoot-out section (see link in my signature). The preamp is a Fearn VT2, which I recommend without any reserve for lush and clear sound.

[DrSax]

Adl600 and innertube audio mag mic fit the description by the OP...

[Plush]

From your description and fitting ALL of your requirements I recommend the Thermionic Culture Earlybird 1.2. It is a tremendous design and monumental in sound character.

For mics I cannot recommend Brauner for piano. The Brauner range is too bright a timbre for piano.

I recommend two FLEA 49 for your use. A beautiful and accurate homage to the Neumann M49, these mics are built with skill and expertise in the Slovak Republic.

Another fantastic piano mic is the Neumann M149. A fantastic design that is more modern sounding than the FLEA.

My preference is for the FLEA mics.

I use these mics and mic amp for piano recordings and I am a piano recording expert extra-ordinaire.

[nosebleedaudio]

Mic Pre I would check out the JM-130...very nice on Piano.
Listen to the Yellowjackets Lifecycle CD and see what you think.

[Warren Beck]

Hello.

As mentioned Schoeps and of course DPA. Really the only way to go.

Pre-amps. Why tube? take the tube Schoeps or DPA in to a proper lass A FET pre-amp. HOWEVER if you are serious about the pre-amp then no question. McCrudy double class AU-300. I would not bother about modern units. Little snobbery on my part there.

Regards,

[hughshouse]

All of the advice I have read in this thread has validity: however in the room you described the 200,000+ cft will have a difficult to predict affect on your recording. The variation from one "D" to another is absolutely on target and, for the record, if you are fortunate enough to have a model with an "Appalachian Red Spruce" sound board, the recording possibilities are off the chart. I use Peluso "P28s" with an "ADL600". The ability to change the mic pattern from omni to cardioid to figure 8 at the power supply along with the ability to adjust the ohm setting on the pre from 150 to 1500 provides the flexibility to find several good combinations. Warmth with a sheen is coloration and as always, one persons pleasure can be another's poison. Try them all till you find a combo of mics and pres that hit your ziz wheel.
Hugh Sturgill

[grrrayson]

I agree that the ADL600 fits your description. It's probably also the cheapest in the list you'll gather here. It's clean and quiet but with a subtle and pleasant rounding of the edges.

I haven't heard a Flea mic ever but I love the M49/M249 on piano (and everything, really) and reports here say that Flea nails it. A pair of the Flea 49/249 mics and an ADL600 would come out to your exact budget.

[NorseHorse]

The ADL was also the first to come to my mind when you described your needs (before I even read the part about what ones you were considering). Wish I could have used it more, but I sold mine because I now use mostly shallow rack units. It's a clean sound which gets thicker, not colored, as it's driven more. In some instances, however, I found it too thick for the material.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The ADL was also the first to come to my mind when you described your needs (before I even read the part about what ones you were considering). Wish I could have used it more, but I sold mine because I now use mostly shallow rack units. It's a clean sound which gets thicker, not colored, as it's driven more. In some instances, however, I found it too thick for the material.

You might try Telefunken tubes in it. Or UK Mullard.

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Mic Pre I would check out the JM-130...very nice on Piano.
Listen to the Yellowjackets Lifecycle CD and see what you think.

+1
Without a doubt a great sounding record all around especially on Russ's piano. Did they do that at Bi-Coastal in NY? I've seen pics of that room, looks nice and also their D.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

+1

Also helps when someone like Rich Breen is setting up the mics and turning them knobs.

Without a doubt a great sounding record all around especially on Russ's piano. Did they do that at Bi-Coastal in NY? I've seen pics of that room, looks nice and also their D.

I've been after Rich to get over here and help me, the guy's too busy. I bought a pair of DPA 4011s on his advice. I really like the sound I'm getting on my D with a Cranesong Spider (although it is overkill the 8 channels) but then I'm doing close mic jazz stuff. Also my room is small in comparison...like 20 X 20 with 15 ft. vaulted ceiling.

Yes Bi Coastal...A Great room.. everyone in the same room...

[Plush]

The ADL 600 is a credible tube mic amp. We use it often here.
However, it in no way offers the majesty of the Thermionic Culture Earlybird 1.2.

Most of the sound of a piano recording is the playa, the ROOM and then way on down the list, the gear.

[Dave Ferris]

[QUOTE=Plush;

Most of the sound of a piano recording is the playa, the ROOM and then way on down the list, the gear.[/QUOTE]

I would put the engineers, the really good ones, high on that list of priorities as well.

[wildplum]

"For classical piano, I am looking for a Tube Mic and Tube Mic Preamp that's:
- lush without color
- transparent and neutral tone
- decent transient response for piano"

Try a Demeter tube mic pre. my experience with them matches what you are looking for.

tube mic: U99 or M149 (ya, it is a highbred).

[3rd&4thT]

You might want to get on the waiting list for a pair of Lucas CS-1's. They're more C12/M49 than U47, and you can hear clips over at the PSW forum. The CS-1 knocked me out, and at under $4K it's an absolute steal.

No commercial interest, just a fan.

Cheers,
3rd&4thT

[Piedpiper]

+1 for the Lucas; more neutral than a C12. No need to mention the venerable U47 when talking neutral. You'll need to move quickly to get on the list for one of the last in a very limited run. Only a few spots left. They'll likely be shipping those last spots in March. I will be using mine when I get it through my Manley dual mono mic pre but a used Forssell M-2 would be the ultimate in a transparent neutral tube design, discontinued.

[2pulse]

Another Lucas vote. The last spots on the reservation list were spoken for within the last week, but there are bound to be a number of people who won't be able to pony up for the deposit once their number is called. Get yourself on the "hopefuls" list!

The pictured configuration was for a less classical and more poppy sound, which worked brilliantly, and I have no doubt that the huge, open and shimmery sound of these mics will be amazing for classical piano as well.