Recording Upright Bass

[themaidsroom]

i would suspend a small condenser in the bridge with rubber bands or foam so that
it's pointing up at the neck, put another condenser at the f hole to the left of
the bridge.......and i would check out the pickup.......if it sounds good you might
want to use that too.......listen to all the mics you have and see what sounds
best to you...........




- jack

[cgarges]

I LOVE an omni mic behind the strings, just below where the fingerboard ends. It's unobtrusive and great for a player who moves or needs to play arco. On my upright session last week, I taped a Crown lavelier to the back of the fingerboard, hanging about an inch below where it stopped. It's a little difficult if you're recording the bass with other instruments in the same room, though, so I often use a cardioid mic up near the where the neck joins the body (depending on where the player's fingers are and how hard they're playing). Again, last week it was an RCA BK5A, but I've also really liked a KM84, FET47, and Audio Technica 4051. The area around the f-hole always sounds too boomy to me, but I'm just some guy.

If it were me, I'd first go for the AKG at the fingerboard. Depending on the bass and the room, the Oktava might be kind of cool if it's not too close. Beyond that, I'd just continue to set stuff up and listen with the track.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[klaukholm]

With a bad instrument you would be best of not trying too hard to capture the actual sound of the bass. If you could get your hands on an underwood pickup (not very expensive and most bassist own one) I would go for that for the main sound. They tend to make every bass sound the same which really benefits lesser instruments while taking a lot away from good ones.
Borrow a fresh set of strings if you can as well as that will do a lot for the sound.
try getting a set of Tomastic spirocore for jazz and the like (non bowed applications).

Good luck
kjetil

[MicLust42]

I play upright, and I engineer, and the problem for me in advising you is that you don't say what kind of music you;ll be recording.

I would not reccomend using a DI signal EVER, unless you plan on using some weird effects on it later.

I would not reccomend micing the f-hole EVER.

SDC's under the strings, peeking up from under the bridge is a time-tested method for a clear sound; you can wrap the mic in foam or use rubber bands as Chris suggested.

But for me the best choice would be an LDC about 3 inches north of the bridge anywhere from 3-12 inches away, depending. It's a thumpy cheap plywood bass? Then perhaps the RODE's inherent brightness will be helpful. Just keep it away from the f-hole whichh only provides boominess and no sense of pitch.

Reuben Radding
Studio STATS, NYC

[darjama]

As a prowd owner and player of a old plywood bass, I've always had a hard time micing the thing. I find that the room sound plays more of a role than most things I need to mic.

One thing to try is something like a player's perspective, a small or medium diaghragm condenser (I like the groove tubes gt44) pointing towards the bridge from in front of the fretboard, at about the 2nd position. If you're playing on a reflective floor, this probably won't work well.

I've also had luck in some cases with the mic in front of the bridge as Reuben mentioned.

[7rojo7]

15 years ago Dave Holland told me to put the mic in front of the bridge and I've been doing it ever since, I was actually going to put it there anyway as that's what I'd been doing until then. I've put up 2 about a foot apart, U67s. If you have a small omni it can go in the bridge, rubber bands over foam, foam can mute the bridge, it's a real magic trick to get rubberbands to work, KM56. Mark Droesser has a pick up on the nut so you can hear the strings behind the finger.
Omni in the bridge is really detailed and has a lot of body, the mic in front sounds like a bass, some pickups are cool and can give you a different sound, but it's doesn't sound like a bass. I wonder how the fingerboard placement would work with a slapper? I know this english guy that would knock that mic to bits.

[dave-G]

Especially if you have a mediocre instrument... Back the f@*k up.

the closer you get to the instrument, the more you're going to be dealing with "hot spots", places where certain freqs are going to be much louder than others.

You can either try to correct this in the mix with a MB compressor or notchy EQs, or you can get a few feet back and let the inverse square law even things out for you.

-dave

[AdamZuf]

I know thisis an old thread but if someone could post or link a picture of that under-the-bridge omni setup it would be very helpful, thanks.

Adam

[Petimar]

Hello Reuben, how you been?

Pete

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by AdamZuf

I know thisis an old thread but if someone could post or link a picture of that under-the-bridge omni setup it would be very helpful, thanks.

Adam

You'll find pics here and a lot of info here.

IME, sound quality and also signal-to-bleed ratio vary greatly depending on the instrument. It's not a "go-to" cooking recipe with guaranteed success, like maybe the SM57 in front of the guitar combo is.

[huub]

I really like the rubberband technique, had good results with neuman km140 facing up, and akg 414 in eight (one side facing wood, other side facing strings) haven't used an omni yet, but suppose would be good too..

[AdamZuf]

Although I don't like the 414, especially in figure 8 (horible unlinear response), It might be interesting to flood it with an upright... I'll give it a try.

[leddy]

I usually use an Earthworks omni, but because of the small size and light weight I tried the Niant MSH1 little $25 omni mic. The ones I have don't seem nearly as bright as the Earthworks and it actually worked really well.

Less weight hanging on the bridge, the sound was excellent, and it's $25.

[mal]

Km 84 looking at the strings/fingers and an 87 or 89 aimed somewhere just left of the F hole on the right hand side of the bass as you look at it...can then blend as required..some ballads/softer tunes I may go more for the lower mic..more full on tunes might have the 84 more dominant for cutting through...(I usually record everyone playing at once)...
Also depends on the bass itself though..if it is a bright bass then often just one LDC like an 87 positioned so it captures a little of the F hole sound but also the strings can work well..also I"ve sometimes used a stereo SM69 with each capsule aimed differently..one towards the f hole though not directly in front..and the other capsule looking at the strings..then blend as required...can work really well and no phase issues...

[LX3]

I recorded upright bass at a gig last night. I used a combination that has worked great in the past - a DPA4061 suspended just under the bridge (using a combination of DPA's little rubber mount that attaches to the strings near the talipiece, and a shock-cord strung between the bridge... I got some photos which I'll post later).

I also put an AT4053 hypercardiod at the neck/body joint pointing at the body/fingerboard.

And for completeness, we DI'd the pickup.

How successful was it? Hmm...

The sound of both the DPA and the AT was glorious... as long as no-one else was playing. This band play loud modern jazz, and there honestly was more drums in the DPA than there was bass, even though the drums were on the opposite side of the stage. I even rigged a foam and gaffer-tape baffle and slid it between the strings south of the bridge, but it didn't help much (not all that surprising, but worth a shot).

The recording will be fine, everything else sounds fantastic... the bass just didn't quite come up to my own high expectations

Will try a different approach next time - I'm thinking cardiod or hypercardioid on a low stand, close in, pointing up at the bridge, and trying to put the rest of the stage in the null as best as possible.

I only wish we'd had a better soundcheck so that I could have worked on it more for this gig. (Long story).

As I say, photos to come. A small digital camera in a belt pouch has become a permanent accessory for me!

Paul

[Improv]

I like a LDC about 2 feet away level with and facing the bridge at a 45 degree angle.

combined with a ribbon about 2 feet away parallel to and facing halfway up the neck.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Improv

I like a LDC about 2 feet away level with and facing the bridge at a 45 degree angle.

combined with a ribbon about 2 feet away parallel to and facing halfway up the neck.

That must sound great with chamber music or a small orchestra, but I'm afraid you'd have way too much leakage in a jazz situation.

I like ribbon mics for bass recording in general. RCA 44 is my favourite, but I've had good luck with Royer 121 and even the El-cheapo Oktava ml-52. I'm not crazy about the Coles 4038 for bass.

The ribbons with their figure-8 pattern, have good off-axis rejection. Therefore, you can set the bass up next to the drums w/o isolation.

I've also had good luck with SDC in the bridge, SDC on a stand, Dynamics like the AKG d12e, Beyer M88 and EV RE20.


BTW, all basses are not alike. Some players use steel strings, others prefer gut strings. There are solo-gauge strings and orchestra strings, high action and low action. Plywood basses and carved wood bases. Loud thumpers and amp-jockeys.

Conclusion: there is no "magic bullet" mic technique that works for every bass player. So check gearslutz frequently for bass recording tips, memorise them and be ready for anything.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by AdamZuf

Although I don't like the 414, especially in figure 8 (horible unlinear response), It might be interesting to flood it with an upright... I'll give it a try.

Hi Adam,

I feel the same way about my XLII in Fig-8. Which model are you referring to?

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I like ribbon mics for bass recording in general. RCA 44 is my favourite, but I've had good luck with Royer 121 and even the El-cheapo Oktava ml-52. I'm not crazy about the Coles 4038 for bass.

The ribbons with their figure-8 pattern, have good off-axis rejection. Therefore, you can set the bass up next to the drums w/o isolation.

Andy, have you used the Beyer M130 on bass?

I ask because I have tried it, and the results were very good, but I still preferred the SDC in the bridge. I'm wondering if a different fig. 8 ribbon would produce much nicer results, but the M130 is the only fig. 8 I have.

[diamondjim]

I my somewhat limited experience, an inexpensive solution that sounds really fantastic on acoustic bass is the Cascade Victor ribbon.

For < $200 this is a great mic and works very well on bass. If you want more of the finger snap then also a SDC up high, blended with the ribbon.

diamondjim
Barn Jazz Home

[LX3]

As promised, my photos of the DPA4061 setup are at:

http://www.lx3.co.uk/gallery/index2.html

Sounded great on its own, but didn't provide nearly enough isolation - I'm not sure anything could have under the circumstances.

Have come up with a version of the rubber band technique, so will be trying that next time.

Paul

[6dyslexicelephnt]

If your Oktava is a LDC like the 319 or 219, try pointing that into the soundhole a foot away and something more sensitive like the BLUE in a place to emphasize attack like the bridge or up the neck where the fingers are picking. Often for bassy instruments it's useful to get a thumpy sound and a clicky sound like the kick drum (one mic on both sides) or two mics on a bass cab - one being really sensitive and one getting a nice warm thump. Looks like you're already on the right track considering i'm recomending basically what you've already tried.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

Andy, have you used the Beyer M130 on bass?

I ask because I have tried it, and the results were very good, but I still preferred the SDC in the bridge. I'm wondering if a different fig. 8 ribbon would produce much nicer results, but the M130 is the only fig. 8 I have.

I haven't used the Beyer yet. I too have been into the SDC thing. Sometimes in the bridge and sometimes on a stand.

You play steel, right? I think SDC is better w/ steel strings.

Ribbons seem to work well with gut.

The only drag about ribbons, is the proximity effect.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I haven't used the Beyer yet. I too have been into the SDC thing. Sometimes in the bridge and sometimes on a stand.

You play steel, right? I think SDC is better w/ steel strings.

Ribbons seem to work well with gut.

The only drag about ribbons, is the proximity effect.

I play a mix - My top two strings are a real gut core with a steel wrap (Olivs), my lower strings are steel (Superflexibles).

BTW, I don't sit, I keep my strings a little higher than most guys (as much as my tendons can take), I try to avoid amps unless necessary and I use a microphone instead of a pickup whenever possible. Your stool-sitting amp jockey comment almost made spit coffee out of my nose.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

I play a mix - My top two strings are a real gut core with a steel wrap (Olivs), my lower strings are steel (Superflexibles).

BTW, I don't sit, I keep my strings a little higher than most guys (as much as my tendons can take), I try to avoid amps unless necessary and I use a microphone instead of a pickup whenever possible. Your stool-sitting amp jockey comment almost made spit coffee out of my nose.

Sounds like your set-up should be flexible enough record well with any of the mic'ing techniques we've discussed.

Did I mention the Beyer m88 hyper-cardioid dynamic? That's good on bass for recording and live work.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Did I mention the Beyer m88 hyper-cardioid dynamic? That's good on bass for recording and live work.

I have one (due in part to your praise of it). It is usually my go-to mic for live use. Too much proximity effect for recording for my personal taste, but it can work very well.

Lately I've been using my Beyer M130 for live sound. Words cannot describe how nice it is, but I'm too worried about keeping it healthy. The M88 is more road-worthy. I'm going to switch back to it this weekend. I also have a little Shure clip-on condenser (Beta 98 HC) in the event the stage is too small for my mic stand.

[zaczac]

Originally Posted by leddy

Andy, have you used the Beyer M130 on bass?

I quite liked one of my M160's on bass when I tested it on it's own, but alas, they always end up on horns or kit when it comes time to record. I've recently fallen head over heels with my M88 for a number of things but off axis spill can get pretty harsh if too much gets through.

I'm a recent convert to a bright SDC in the bridge especially for ply basses.

[ctms777]

DPA 4021 with VH4000 holder for upright bass gives me very good sounds and isolation, it can be a bit boomy, but nothing that can't be EQ'd. Before I used TLM170's pointed at the bridge, great sound, bad rejection.