Big choir, small orchestra

[hemulen]

Hi Folks,

I'm recording a choir / orchestra concert (with soloists) this weekend - all fairly straightforward except that the choir is potentially 170 strong with an orchestra of 15. The stage setup is likely to be quite deep, with the soloists in front of the conductor and the choir arranged to the rear and sides of the orchestra (with the back rows on risers). Just looking for a starting point here as I won't have too much time on the night for experimenting - I'm currently thinking spaced omni's in the auditorium to pick up everything supplemented with an ortf pair fairly close in to the orchestra (e.g just above the conductor's head and pointing at the woodwinds). Open to other suggestions, though - plenty spare channels.

It's an amateur choir and (I'm hoping) competent musicians, which may mitigate the potential imbalance. The venue is a 1930's concert hall (used for university graduations and the like) seating 500 or thereabouts, wood panelled stage area with no drapes, not too lively though (carpeted auditorium). I might be able to fly mics by stringing between the balconies. The stage has a 3m extension (complete with creaky floor) into the auditorium which will be in use; I'm assuming the soloists will be positioned there.

The program is Vivaldi and Handel

All advice / suggestions gratefully received!

[Tom McC]

In a somewhat similar live concert situation - 120 choir on risers behind orchestra of 25, with 4 soloists front stage on conductors's left - I've had reasonably pleasing results with the following:

1. Main: Jecklin disk /Schoeps Mk2s, 4m high, 3m behind conductor
2. Choir: ORTF/Schoeps Mk4; flown high above orchestra back row
3. Soloists support: XY coincident /Mk4, waist height 1.5m out, with XY included angle only ca. 60 deg. (i.e. pointing at 'outside' singers)

Mics 2 and 3 needed some panning, width adjustment and time alignment to click into register with 1 (which was still about 80% of total.) Next time I might go with Blumlein /Mk8 on choir, to minimize brass bleed from orchestra back row, and a less visually obtrusive M/S pair for the soloists.

[DannyL]

I would suggest an ORTF pair above the conductor's head, perhaps 1.5 to 2 meters, I would aim the mics so they mimic the conductor's ears, not necessarily favoring the woodwinds. Use section mics for favoring instruments. Pan the ORTF pair hard L/R and use this image to determine all stereo placement. Spot mics for soloists. Mic the choir in sections, do you have any good side address cardioids?

I would also put a pair of cardioid condensors in the hall for ambience and audience reacts. Maybe 2/3 of the way back 1.5-3 meters either side of center.

My 2¢.

Danny

[hemulen]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys - appreciated. Any other suggestions? I'm concerned here that the choir might overwhelm the orchestra, but presumably with a near and distant pair, and possible section spots that should cover all eventualities. With a smaller choir and larger orchestra I might have considered spotting the choir sections with fig-8's, but I'm trying to avoid having a forest of mics here and I'm not sure that will be necessary on this occasion; I imagine keeping the choir out of the orchestra mics might be more of an issue?

[DannyL]

You will not be able to keep the choir out of the orchestra mics. This is why you need to rely on the ORTF pair over the conductor's head, and hope that the conductor is decent. If youu plan your mic'ing around the fact that you will have leakage you can make an excellent natural sounding recording. Isolation in live events is sometimes not attainable, so you have to let the leakage work for you.

Danny

[joelpatterson]

I'd say your instincts are right on-- and if you have the time/inclination, extra pairs of stereo-ized mics to ring the stage with would get you additional perspectives. Good luck, these vast groups tend to work themselves into a glorious frenzy!

[DannyL]

Respectfully, i think this a wrong approach... you generally need to establish 1 stereo perspective and distribute the panning relevant to this perspective. Stereo imaging is time dependant, so you need to choose one point in time and space to make it all work. But large choirs can can pretty frenetic: another thing to bear in mind...keep your mics well balanced and supported and your cables hidden.

Danny

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I'd say your instincts are right on-- and if you have the time/inclination, extra pairs of stereo-ized mics to ring the stage with would get you additional perspectives. Good luck, these vast groups tend to work themselves into a glorious frenzy!

[joelpatterson]

We will agree to differ, then, and I appreciate the respect and agree that there are many ways to approach this whole game.

Here's an example of what I mean... a stage ringed with mics...

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download 03 Herr, lehre doch mich.mp3

[hemulen]

Joel,

I'm not able to listen to your example at the moment, but the approach sounds intriguing - not really one I'd considered or heard of before. What advantages do you think it gives over more conventional techniques? What height would the mics be at? How would you handle the mixdown - would you still be time-aligning and panning to fit the image provided by a main pair? Is this effectively a means of spot-micing without having to invade the stage too much?

Unfortunately I think my interest will have to remain academic for the time being as time for experimentation on this occasion is going to be fairly limited, but thanks for the tip.

Danny,

would you be using the "orchestra mics" as the main pair and relying on the hall mics for ambience / additional choir pickup?

[DannyL]

I would be using the ORTF pair over the conductor as the main pair.

The ambient/audience pair is just that: for establishing the live audience and the feel of the room. There will certainly be choir in the ambient pair but I would use it as a sort of reverb, if you will. I did a recording at a large cathedral, years ago, and the Choir was immeadiately behind the orchestra. I used a pair of mics over the conductor, and a pair for the aand mic'ed the Choir with very tall stands, plus the section mics and solo spots. Often, the choir is placed so that balance is attainable by the conductor or the choir is ion the side or sides of the stage. Hopefully this will the case for you.

My approach is to get a balance using the ortf pair as the frame on which everything hangs. After all the levels and balances are set there is very little fader movement, except for solos and minor adjustments: theoretically the conductor is responsible for the sound, if you can hear what he or she hears, there is no reason to change it. Of course that is the rub: translating the physical characteristics of the space into the conductor's vision. If I open a mic and the image appears to shift, I assume that the mic is incorrectly panned and make the necessary adjustment. Hopefully I am able to do this before recording.

Danny

[hemulen]

Originally Posted by DannyL

The ambient/audience pair is just that: for establishing the live audience and the feel of the room. There will certainly be choir in the ambient pair but I would use it as a sort of reverb, if you will.

OK, I'd usually use omni flanks for that purpose - to give a little additional spaciousness and ambience; occasionally to make up for lack of coverage if the ensemble is particularly wide; also to supply some of the LF missing from a cardioid pair. I'd be worried that positioning a coincident pair far enough back to add "reverb" would also add coughs, creaks and shuffles, and might even narrow the stereo image somewhat. Maybe rear facing...? I'd also be worried I might get more mud than reverb - this isn't a nice stone church I'm recording in, unfortunately.

The approach I was thinking of was to have the main pair back far enough to capture the choir/orchestra as a whole (not forgetting the soloists, who will be behind the conductor; I will be micing them individually, though), and for the forward ortf pair favouring the orchestra enough to add substance/definition to it if required - trying to balance the mix of direct choir by adjusting the height and vertical angle, perhaps? As long as it doesn't pick up too much conductor, of course...

[DannyL]

I would not use a coincident or near coincident pair (ortf is a near-coincident pair, btw) but rather a pair of large diaphragm cardioids on either side of the center aisle or each side of the FOH mix platform (if it exists), positioned to get a minimum of specific spurious noise. As much as 6 meters apart.
You could use spaced omnis too, though I find that they lack a certain presence for my taste.

[pkautzsch]

Figure-Eight mics come to mind, pointing straight down and keeping the choir in their nulls. I guess you'll spot mic each section. Only things usually coming through well enough in settings like that are brass and oboe (and clarinet if in higher register).
If you're lucky, you might not need all spots you put up, or you can use them just slightly. But be prepared that this kind of choir tends to easily get about 10 dB louder in concert than they were in rehearsal - orchestra doesn't.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by hemulen

.... What advantages do you think it gives over more conventional techniques? ...

A series of mics more or less equidistant from an imaginary vanishing point, which we can picture at the center stage back wall... this is basically an attempt to triangulate the whole stage, in a holographic way-- get a "sort of near" reading of everything worthwhile. It has the great advantage of being able to show up anywhere, and just do it-- often the mics are on custom low profile stands sitting on the lip of the stage, and at mixdown, all "sets" are panned maximum left/right.

I don't time allign anything... but I figure everything is placed so that they should hear the imaginary vanishing point's timpani or triangle (or whatever guardians of imaginary vanishing points favor) at the same time-- and so then accurately represent the three dimensions of everything else? I realize-- this is highly experimental, treacherous ground, and not for the faint of heart!

[Roland]

In my experience, amateur choir's are not usually that loud, certainley I've worked with choirs of 30 pro singers that can lift the roof off! The danger is that you can over intellectualize the job where a simple pair up front (possibly with outriggers) will be perfectly suitable. Of course if the conductor manages to make them shout out and drown out the orchestra there is no amount of techniques (short of spot miking the entire orchestra) that's going to give you a chance. In this scenario the concert will sound awful anyway. With mic's at the front particularly within 6-10 ft of the front of the band the balance will slightly favour the band unless you hang them too high. Usually I'm in the privilaged position of working with people I know well or being hired as producer so I can often make suggestions and discuss balance issues with the conductor/director, I understand fully this may or may not be the same for you. The only problem you may run into with your original ortf pair idea is that it will tend to squash the perspective slightly, whereas an AB pair will give a greater sense of perspective that may very well help in this situation.

Just a couple of things to think about!

Regards


Roland

[Roland]

One quick further thought, with a Handel/Vivaldi programme, the music is usually pretty well scored and there is usually a lot of interplay between the orchestra and singers, it's not like recording the Verdi Requiem, with just 15 players!

Roland

[hemulen]

Thanks guys - I shouldn't have worried; the conductor did a great job of mixing!