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Cardioid vs. Super-Cardioid
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BFSound
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30th November 2009
Old 30th November 2009
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Question Cardioid vs. Super-Cardioid

Whats better for live usage. A cardioid dynamic mic or a super-cardioid dynamic?

Specifically the sennheiser E 835 Vs the E845 or E865 Super's

I just did some light reading and some say the 845 is prone to feedback? The vocalist in the band i work for uses this system but i dont know which mic he has? Im thinking the 835 and i always fight feedback with his mic at higher SPL's. No matter what i do. I read they really pick up background noise which i can say does happen alot with his mic.

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30th November 2009
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The problem with super and hyper cardioid for live is that, unlike cardioid, they pick up directly to the rear of the microphone. Which is where your monitor usually is.

A cardioid mic should be fine. Follow some simple rules:
1) The microphone should be close to the source, and on-axis.
2) The monitor should be at or close to the area of maximum rejection (directly behind a cardioid, but to the side of a hyper-cardioid).
3) If the volume of your monitors is low, feedback will be less likely. Stage volume should be kept low so that monitors aren't drowned out (and turned up).
4) Monitors should be properly rung out.
5) Don't compress a vocal mic that is returning to the monitors (bus it to a sub-group and compress that instead).
6) Keep an eye out for reflective surfaces behind the performer. Nearby walls and windows can reflect sound from the monitors into the microphones.

One you have less influence on: vocalists should sing loud, and on-mic!
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30th November 2009
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Ok i was kind of confused to the difference i know it was pick up pattern but i couldnt find any good pics to show the difference. Thanks For the insight, all very good pointers!
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30th November 2009
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I just went back and read the mic descriptions and it says the supers have better feedback rejection? Is that just marketing? It seems like if super cardioid mics pick up the rear noise than that would create more feedback?

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30th November 2009
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Yeah, I would disagree with that, UNLESS your monitors were placed in the area of rejection (135 and 225 degrees). You may also have good results if you angle the mic so it is near-parallel with the floor instead of angled upwards (facing directly away from the monitors) like you would a cardioid.

Hyper and super cardioid microphones do pick up less bleed from other things on stage (for example drums and cymbals) though. Unless they are pointed right at what is producing the sound, in which case they pick up MORE.

And as long as you are singing on-axis, one advantage of these mics is that you can have more distance from the mic and still get good level.
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30th November 2009
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Sorry i forgot to mention im working with and reading about the wireless versions. So when it comes to positioning there is a lot of variable.

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1st December 2009
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The rear pickup of super cards is minimal compared to the off axis rejection benefit. I usually only use super or hypers on really loud stages or with Beta 58s where a singer just doesn't "cut through" the mix.
The proximity effect is often worse with super or hyper cards too.
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1st December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedupsteve View Post
The rear pickup of super cards is minimal compared to the off axis rejection benefit. I usually only use super or hypers on really loud stages or with Beta 58s where a singer just doesn't "cut through" the mix.
The proximity effect is often worse with super or hyper cards too.
Im really new to the different mics and effects of them etc.. Could you explain proximity effect? Also we generally play on really loud stages so i might want to go with a super for our vocalist. Where would i want my monitors. Should i always be placing them in the areas of rejection?
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1st December 2009
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NVM i read up on Proximity effects.. What about off axis rejection. Is that the areas where sound is not picked up. And what would on axis be?

Thanks, sorry for the noob questions...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFSound View Post
NVM i read up on Proximity effects.. What about off axis rejection. Is that the areas where sound is not picked up. And what would on axis be?

Thanks, sorry for the noob questions...
Off axis rejection is the angles where sound incidence will produce the least signal out of the mic. On axis is always 0°, straight ahead.
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1st December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFSound View Post
NVM i read up on Proximity effects.. What about off axis rejection. Is that the areas where sound is not picked up. And what would on axis be?

Thanks, sorry for the noob questions...
If you were to draw a line straight through the mic from the back through the front that's the axis. Extend that line out and the farther you get away from the line the more off axis you are.
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3rd December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedupsteve View Post
If you were to draw a line straight through the mic from the back through the front that's the axis. Extend that line out and the farther you get away from the line the more off axis you are.
Unless the mic is a side adress one, such as most LDC mic's. :-)


/Peter
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