Mellow Grand Piano - which mics to rent?

[Kubilay]

I am about to record a 1927 Steinway Grand with a beautiful, old-fashioned tone in a smallish studio here in LA with pretty decent acoustics.

This is for a piano solo track. I want to get a fairly intimate sound, "closer" and with less room than the average classical record, but with the same mellow fullness; not with bright and in-your-face pop qualities.

I will either be using two Avalon 737s (the studio's) or an Aurora Audio GTQ2 (mine). I usually rent from Design FX, here's their selection:

http://www.dfxaudio.com/rentals-mics.html

Which mic would you get? I'm a little lost, thinking of either two U47FETs or two Coles. Again, warm, mellow, intimate is the goal here. The budget is non-existant, so no Tube mics, and no multiples (i.e. "just get the u47FET and the Coles and see which works best..." no can do, I's broke.)

Thanks for the expert advice. Yes, I'll have enough time to mess around with placement, but I have to reserve the mics and am stuck with what I order.

[RecTechMin]

two kiwis! i got a great full chunky sound with these mics running through the great river preamps with the gain stage turned hot. these mics do something great to the sound -- almost spongey.

[djui5]

B&K 4134 (pair) through the Aurora probably...if it's a bit on the bright side run em though the 737's

[vandi]

I've had fantastic luck with a matched pair of Sony C48's. Another suggestion would be a Royer SF-24 or SF-12. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these mics.

just my .02

[Kubilay]

Kiwis are not on the list. Please stick to the mics on the list, or let me know which rental company in LA carries Blue Mics. (Don't think any of them do...) And while terminology is difficult in sound, "chunky" sounds not very "intimate", but I may be wrong here...

But thanks anyway.

So, folks, off of THIS LIST, which mics to rent? Details see original post. Once again: warm, mellow, intimate is the goal here.

Thanks!

[Kubilay]

Thanks for the tip on the B&Ks. Never used these mics, how bright are they? Are they going to be able to do the "intimate thing"?

As for all the other tips, Thanks much, but please stick to the mics on THIS LIST ONLY. Thanks!

(Or else let me know which rental house in LA carries whatever you think is better. But very few mics other than the 'classics" are carried by rental companies....)

Other than the B&K, any other recommendations? Details see first post.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Kubilay

Thanks for the tip on the B&Ks. Never used these mics, how bright are they? Are they going to be able to do the "intimate thing"?

Yeah...probably better than just about any mic on that list. The 4011's are incredible also, but they're cardoid. If the room sounds decent, I'd use omni's.

Intimate they will be if placed right. These mic's are insanely honest and wide open. They're not really bright, but if you compared them to a ribbon or KM84's you might think the top end is "more extended". Very pleasant mics....very pleasant.

I'm imagining the Aurora should flavor them very well....

[Dave Gonzalez]

For Piano, B&K (DPA) mics are best. Omni is best. PLease take your time with placement. I wouldn't running anything through an Avalon(thats just me).

Other than that, U87's. Play with the polar patterns. Omni is probaly the best as it gives you the "you are there" sound.

[Jamz]

For a mellow or more natural sound I would try the Coles 4038s.

The Schoeps and 414s would provide a brighter sound.

[Hans Hitmachine]

I agree on Omni. I've a Bluthner Grand which is very dark, old fashioned and mellow as well. I like an intimate upfront sound too. I use a pair of Avenson omni mics. They can sound extremely warm. They're transperant but not "clean". 500$ at Mercenary audio.
I find many cardioids to be almost unusable for pianos. Especially when closemiking it, because the have this proximity boost wich makes everything extremely whooly sounding. They tend to be honky in the mids as well and still sound far away. You need omnis. They're the pianist dream.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Hans Hitmachine

I agree on Omni. I've a Bluthner Grand which is very dark, old fashioned and mellow as well. I like an intimate upfront sound too. I use a pair of Avenson omni mics. They can sound extremely warm. They're transperant but not "clean". 500$ at Mercenary audio.

Hans, when you say "not clean"...do you mean colored or noisy kind of not clean?

[Hans Hitmachine]

No. I mean that they're not clinical "clean". They're natural. If that makes sense.

[Jamz]

Ahh! I prefer natural. I've been hearing good things about those mics. At that price point it might be worthwhile picking ip a pair.
Thanks.

Jim

[fifthcircle]

For the kind of sound you are looking for, I'd look at ribbons pretty seriously. I think Coles would do well as would just about anything in the Royer line (I often use an SF-24). I've also had great results with the original U87's... They have a much darker sound than the newer ones and it can work very well for piano.

Beyond that, I use my DPA 4006's for much of my classical work and I also tend to use schoeps a fair amount as well (but I don't own them, so they end up being rentals).

Also on that rental list- Sennheiser MKH40's are fantastic mics. Not hyped at all like many condensers are and they are very quiet.

--Ben

[Jim vanBergen]

A matched pair of the B&K/DPA or the Schoeps CMC/CK5 is going to be your best bet IMHO. Matched pair of small diaphragm omni condensers is what you have to ask for from your rental source. How close you get and lid position is going to depend on the sound of the room! I too, like the MKH40 and the DPA4011 mics but cardioid ain't the right thing unless the room DEMANDS it, and I doubt, with a vintage, dark-sounding 'Way, you will want cardioid, EVER. Though I recently used a pair of KM184s in ORTF 6' in front of a piano for a Piano Concerto with stunning results, that was a rare momentof weakeness with a Decca Tree of DPA 4041's overhead.

[Kubilay]

Thanks, all. I went with a pair of B&K 4007s. I'll let you know how it all turned out!

[Jamz]

Good luck.

BTW Can anyone comment on the differences in quality (sonics and build) between the very reasonably priced Avenson omnis and the more expensive DPA 4006s?

[wwittman]

I think your instinct to use 4038's (Coles) is a good one.

And I might try ONE, rather than two.

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by Jamz

BTW Can anyone comment on the differences in quality (sonics and build) between the very reasonably priced Avenson omnis and the more expensive DPA 4006s?

I've not used the 4006, I have used some of the B&K predecessors. I own the Avensons.

FWIW here are some of the specs:

DPA 4006 has lower self noise, at least partly (or mainly) because it uses a larger diaphragm than the Avenson, and therefore has higher output (10 mV vs 5.25 mV).

Avenson response doesn't extend as high; that "-2 dB" is past 15 kHz or so. Can be good or bad, I guess, depending on your needs. IMO it has a very natural sound, does not emphasize the trebles as many small diameter mics do.


DPA 4006
Electret condenser
Capsule diameter 16 mm (.63 inch)
Sensitivity 10 mV/Pa
Equivalent Noise A-weighted 15 dBA
Maximum SPL 143 dB
Frequency Reponse 20 Hz to 40 kHz ±1 dB

Avenson STO-2
Electret condenser
Capsule diameter 6.4 mm (.25 inch)
Sensitivity 5.25 mV/Pa
Equivalent Noise A-weighted 28 dBA
Maximum SPL 145 dB
Frequency Reponse 20 Hz to 20 kHz +0/-2 dB


The Avenson is built well, very solid machined housing. I'm sure the 4006 is excellent, as typical of DPA/B&K history.

Oh yeah, the other difference, which you already mentioned --
4006 costs $1700 or so, each
STO-2 costs $250 each

I would hope the DPA is a lot better for that big difference. Is it 7 times better, 2.6 times better, no better, I don't know.

Steve

[cdog]

Royer SF1 spaced pair.