What's the ULTIMATE equipment for live vocals?

[apachelion]

What would you do if you wanted the highest quality live vocal sound imaginable? What kind of equipment would you require and why (microphone, preamp, effects, output gear)? Would you rely on whole channel strips, or would you use separate units for each stage (e.g. eq for eq only, reverb for reverb only etc.)? Would you rely on a mixer and built-in controls, or would you do everything you could to separate the vocals from the main PA? What about output and monitoring?

To make it a bit harder--imagine you are mic-ing a rock vocalist in a rock band where the singer has to cut through a loaded mix. What is the ultimate vocal setup?

Remember, there are no budget limitations!

P.S. Let's also assume you have a great vocalist with a huge range and lots of dynamics.

[kosmokrator]

- best FOH-engineer you can afford
- best monitor-engineer you can afford
- best PA-tech you can afford

you were asking for equipment? That depends on the voice, the PA, the venue etc.
There is no 'best'.

[audio ergo sum]

The "ultimate" - as for "ultimate" - equipment would be something that kills the vocalist.

Besides that I would recommend clean drinking water and herb tea with honey in the vocalists wardrobe. Sometimes warm beer works wonders. Also coffee can help. Have all those available.

Next thing is I would make sure the vocalist knows how to work with a microphone in a live situation.

Then I would think about which mic to use based on what suits his voice and the music style.

Then I would consult about the quality of the PA system used, since there is no point if the "ultimate" signal leaves your FOH desk to be distributed over a shitty PA. (Unless you only care about the recording)

If I have time after making sure I have eaten well that day before the show, I would worry about the preamp, compressor, eq, mixing desk etc.

[jasonraboin]

I think you are looking for gear recommendations. I'll bite.

Any of the highly regarded mic pres on this site are going to be an improvement over console pres. I use the A Designs Pacifica, but other engineers use the Avalon 737. Bono (U2) uses the Manley Voxbox.

I am a fan of keeping the pre on stage, so the signal travels down the snake at line level. Once levels are set at rehearsals, they rarely need to be changed, and there is gain on the console if necessary. You just have to watch out for low end transformers in the split that are not capable of handling line level signals.

For mixes where headroom is a concern, compressing the vocal in the analog domain before hitting the A/D converter of the console is useful. I like the DBX 162SL or 160SL for this, but there are tons of great compressors out there. I don't think you want to take an LA2A on the road, but a Purple MC77 might do the trick. Depends on the singer.

I used to carry a Speck EQ for the lead vocal. Now that I'm mixing on Digidesign consoles, I use EQ3. If money were no object, I would look into an analog Massenburg EQ. Maybe put together a Weiss EQ and compressor package. That is certainly a no compromise way to go.

I think the most important non-human element of the chain is the microphone. I am an avid Heil fan. Again, this depends on the voice, stage volume level, monitor needs, etc.

You can have the best chain in the world, but if the speaker system is sub-par, poorly tuned, poorly deployed, or in an acoustically challenging venue, none of it will make a noticeable difference. Also, making the singer comfortable on stage will do far more for the performance than any gear will.

I am fortunate that I mix mostly on A level gear in decent sounding concert halls, so for me it is a worthwhile investment.

[apachelion]

Guys, let's talk about a real-world situation please.

You have a demanding vocalist, he is great professionally, and he wants even the tiniest nuances of his voice heard by everyone in front. You are the guy who takes care of his sound, and you have to buy all the necessary equipment and do the right setup every time he performs. He plays all types of venues--big, small, band, acoustic, everything. He wants the best and only the best every time, and you are gonna have to create a setup that "just works".

What are you going to do to be successful? As some of you pointed out, sure all singers are different, but not that different and obviously, you can't try every single microphone or preamp out there on him, can you? Where do you start? What are your first top choices?

Here's a tip--you are miking a hard rock vocalist in every imaginable situation.

Please talk from experience and a professional standpoint, and be specific.

Thanks

[pan]

OK, first step would be to put the band and singer on in-ears to cut down on stage bleed.

Now choose a microphone that compliments the artists voice and manage to get a good monitormix.

Get a digital console to recall different setups and song-settings.

Make the talent sound good with as little FX as possible. A delay and simple reverb should get you there.

If you are not satisfied yet, experiment with different gear like preamps and compressors.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by apachelion

Guys, let's talk about a real-world situation please.

You have a demanding vocalist, he is great professionally, and he wants even the tiniest nuances of his voice heard by everyone in front. You are the guy who takes care of his sound, and you have to buy all the necessary equipment and do the right setup every time he performs. He plays all types of venues--big, small, band, acoustic, everything. He wants the best and only the best every time, and you are gonna have to create a setup that "just works".

What are you going to do to be successful? As some of you pointed out, sure all singers are different, but not that different and obviously, you can't try every single microphone or preamp out there on him, can you? Where do you start? What are your first top choices?

Here's a tip--you are miking a hard rock vocalist in every imaginable situation.

Please talk from experience and a professional standpoint, and be specific.

Thanks

There are specific applications of gear based on specific situations. The rig fits the gig. If you would be more specific you might get a more specific answer. There's no magic box that solves all the problems in the business.

[bishopthomas]

The real world situation is that the PA and how you drive it is MUCH more important than what esoteric tube compressor you plug into the channel insert. As is the stage volume, the time you have to soundcheck... the list goes on and on - before you even think about your outboard gear. When I was on the road with a punk ska band I was more worried about patching IEM's and getting 9 monitor mixes, sometimes from FOH, and sometimes from crappy consoles with 4 prefade auxes. The drummer thrashing behind 9 open mics was more of a concern than which multi-thousand dollar compressor I wanted to play with. I think most people who have responded are coming from that same scenario, which is why you aren't quite enjoying the responses.

[bishopthomas]

By the way, is this a school project?

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by apachelion

Guys, let's talk about a real-world situation please.
...
What are you going to do to be successful?...

Dude, you can't shortcut years of theoretical education and practical experience.

Gearslutz is a cool place, but even if someone tells you his killer setup it means NOTHING if you don't know how to operate it and how to do a thousand things you just need to know.

[DannyL]

I must concur with the majority opinion here: There is no such thing as "The Best" piece of equipment. There is what is best for your specific needs.

That said I have heard more than a few great singers sound great on so-so equipment but I have NEVER heard a so-so singer sound great on anything.

Danny

[jasonraboin]

I think you need to be much more specific if you want real advice. I also have to say it seems like you are in over your head based on your posts so far. I assumed when I posted gear advice that you already had the guy on in ears or a wedge situation that worked for him, and you were looking to take things to the next level.

If you were to say to us that he uses a pair of wedges but isn't getting the separation he wants, then we might suggest 3 wedges with 2 mixes to have different sources for vocals and instruments, or the use of side fills. We could point you in the direction of in-ear manufacturers, if you haven't already tried that.

Give us much more specific detail of what you are currently using and what is and isn't working. Are you the monitor engineer? FOH engineer?

[surflounge]

do you need gates in the vox chain?

[vitreouswindows]

A detailed handheld such as a Schoeps CMCH64 or an early Neumann handheld (KMS105 - not sure of the number, but it was basically a KM84 Neumann made happen as a handheld); clean detailed pre - take your pick (many to choose from, and needn't be wildly costly); speakers that you know will be exacting - Meyer, Nexo, ATC.

That said, you can have all of the gear components, but the room will play a large part in the overall sound. The previous posts that have noted the importance of the skill(s) of the persons running the equipment - I would corroborate the significance of those perspectives.

I recall visiting with the fellow that used to do some of Elvis's live gigs in the '70s and the reason E went with him is because he used studio-type set-ups, thus boosting the clarity. I suspect that which allows for greater nuance will serve what you're seeking. Best of luck.

[Jarp2600]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

- best FOH-engineer you can afford
- best monitor-engineer you can afford
- best PA-tech you can afford

you were asking for equipment? That depends on the voice, the PA, the venue etc.
There is no 'best'.

Second that.

[DannyL]

The Neumann mic in question was the Neumann KMS-84i. I have one. pretty damn nice, but not very robust. It was Tony Benett's mic of choice.

Side trip:
I had a Gefel M900 on demo for a while, which was a large diaphragm direct address condensor mic, which (along w/ the hypercardidoid version) was fairly flattering and detailed. It was certainly more durable than the KMS-84i, and sounded pretty good on a wide range of voices and instruments...I liked it on woodwinds, especially flutes.

Back to the topic: I used to do sound for a prominent folk act ages ago and would bring a small collection of mics and 2 API 8MX2's mic pre racks which I would patch into the channel inserts of whatever desk the venue had. I still use the ATI's as my mic pre's in portable rig.... great sound, robust construction.

Still..... talent is far more valuable than gear. A good musician is always going to sound like a good musician. A good mixer can always get something to sound good.

Danny

Originally Posted by vitreouswindows

A detailed handheld such as a Schoeps CMCH64 or an early Neumann handheld (KMS105 - not sure of the number, but it was basically a KM84 Neumann made happen as a handheld); clean detailed pre - take your pick (many to choose from, and needn't be wildly costly); speakers that you know will be exacting - Meyer, Nexo, ATC.

That said, you can have all of the gear components, but the room will play a large part in the overall sound. The previous posts that have noted the importance of the skill(s) of the persons running the equipment - I would corroborate the significance of those perspectives.

I recall visiting with the fellow that used to do some of Elvis's live gigs in the '70s and the reason E went with him is because he used studio-type set-ups, thus boosting the clarity. I suspect that which allows for greater nuance will serve what you're seeking. Best of luck.

[Jim vanBergen]

You have received excellent advice on this thread. Primarily that experience and talented engineers working with high quality performers can make any gear sound good, whereas great engineers can't make a shitty singer sound any better. But by now, you must have figured out that you can't polish a turd.

There is no one "holy grail" vocal mic or channel. Some singers will prefer a particular mic. The first question how does the singer work the mic, and are they consistent & good about their technique? You may or may not the ability to fix their method.

Next: the mics they are used to using, is it dynamic or condenser? Which is more appropriate? Do they need sensitivity for soft source, or the ability to handle high SPL without distorting and string off-axis rejection for loud stage monitors? If you are dealing with a rock vocalist, it's probable that you'll need a dynamic mic. The serious Pop, R&B, and Country singers more often go the route of condensers before a rock vocalist can.

There are literally dozens of threads here on live vocal mics. Before you go asking for a "Holy Grail" mic, which ones has your artist used and liked? Shure SM58, Beta58, Beta 87, Beta 57, Sennheiser 409, 441, 835, 431, Audix OM3, OM5, OM7, Audio Technica 5300, Neumann KM104, KM105, AKG 535EB, Telefunken M80, Beyer M69, M88, E/V 767.... the list goes on, and on, and on.

I have no less than TEN vocal mics I keep in my inventory when working with a new artist, but I usually have one minute to try two and then use the one I prefer, and that's what we get. If your singers is professional & experienced, they have a mic they prefer, and you should spend the time getting to know what they like about it.

After you have the mic you like and THEY like, you have to make a choice about path. I find it difficult to leave the preamp onstage unless your monitor engineer is in tune with your preferences.

The vocal path can be far and wide, a huge departure from the vocal mic. Ask your artist what recording of their voice they like the best, and find out what the engineer did. I have used, from time to time, everything from a Manley DVC to VoxBox to SSL Alpha Channel to the older Focusrite Blue Range vocal master to the Chandler TG2 to Daking 52270B pre/EQ to Avalon 737 to... well, quite a few more. I've never found only ONE solution for more than one voice. Sometimes I need a Distressor, sometimes a Neve EQ, sometimes the API, sometimes an SSL compressor to do gentle vocal comp/rounding adds the bit of glue. Being a knowledgeable engineer with decades of both live and studio experience makes a huge difference.

This may not seem very helpful, as you seem to be wanting an "answer", but the real answer is, it all depends- on everything.

Best regards.

JvB

[apachelion]

OK, seems like I have a lot of learning to do. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was looking for the "Holy Grail", but all I wanted was for you, the experienced guys, to give me YOUR personal preferences when it comes to what type of gear you use for live vocals.

From what I read, you all recommend that I worry about the speakers, and PA first. What would you get for medium to large clubs mainly? Can you please try to give me a more universal solution that can also work for small to medium open-air concerts, so that having 1 setup can be modified only slightly for different situations.

Finally, and thanks for pointing out in-ear monitors, what would you do if you have to deal with shitty equipment (poor speakers/PA)? How do you make the singer as comfortable as possible, so that he can hear himself clearly even when he doesn't sound well in front?

Let's put it this way--how do you make the singer the most independent from external events? What is the best you can do to get a great signal, and feed it back to him for monitoring regardless of circumstances? What would be your vocal and voice-monitoring chain?

Would appreciate advice and further reading on the topic of live vocals.

Thanks

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by apachelion

From what I read, you all recommend that I worry about the speakers, and PA first. What would you get for medium to large clubs mainly? Can you please try to give me a more universal solution that can also work for small to medium open-air concerts, so that having 1 setup can be modified only slightly for different situations.

Medium to large clubs will have installed PA systems. These are typically (hopefully) chosen to match the room and the goals that the designer is trying to meet. It has (again, hopefully) been tuned to the room. As far as outdoor concerts, why are you asking about it? Are you looking at buying a PA? If so what is your budget? How many people are you trying to cover? Are you setting it up yourself or are you hiring crew for that? Or are you specing out a rig for riders? If so we can all throw our favorite speaker brands at you and tell you that you'll need to learn about power distribution and tying in, etc.

I may be way off base, but all these hypotheticals just make me think you're writing a school paper rather than actually trying to accomplish something. If you will tell us more specifics of your goals I'm sure you'll get more specific and detailed answers and explanations.

Originally Posted by apachelion

Finally, and thanks for pointing out in-ear monitors, what would you do if you have to deal with shitty equipment (poor speakers/PA)? How do you make the singer as comfortable as possible, so that he can hear himself clearly even when he doesn't sound well in front?

Dealing with shitty equipment is what differentiates the mediocre engineers from the good/great ones. The best way to keep the singer in his own world is to pipe the signal directly into his ear canal. Then, of course, you'll need a way to get it there, so bring adapters, cables, and your brain with you.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

- best FOH-engineer you can afford
- best monitor-engineer you can afford
- best PA-tech you can afford

you were asking for equipment? That depends on the voice, the PA, the venue etc.
There is no 'best'.

It's true.

IMO, it's more about the "ear" than the gear.

A great crew will get you a lot further along the sonic highway than any gear will by itself.

[ears2thesky]

Let's see...this is the kind of bullshit that makes this whole website lame.
"Hi, I don't know anything could someone please tell me what's going on?

Commit yourself to your craft, read all of the trade magazines, read all of the posts on equipment that are relevant to your situation. Do your own ****ing homework.


I would like to do some open heart surgery but I never bothered to study medicine. Can someone tell me what's the best scalpel for the job?

Bullocks!

[wildplum]

here's an empirical approach- time consuming and expensive, but you said money was not an issue. Assumes you have competent engineers.

beg, borrow, rent, or buy as many vocal mics as you can. rent a hall typical of the halls you will be playing. rent a PA typical of the type you be using.

set up your band in the hall with the PA and run through their songs, comparing mics. listen. you'll be able to determine which one(s) best suit your vocalist.

after this, if you think you need compression or eq (beyond that provided by the board), run through the same exercise, renting outboard processors this time. (Although, based on your comments, an 1176 might be very useful for compression.)

[RobAnderson]

Here's a tip--you are miking a hard rock vocalist in every imaginable situation.

SM58

it sounds better than most people give it credit for, it will work in any environment, in any kind of weather, it will survive the most demanding of road trips, deals well with screaming monitors, and is forgiving of the most callous mishandling.

you can also use it as a hammer to remove the hinge-pins from a stubborn piano.

Works well as a wedge-type door stop when you are rolling the cases out at the end of the night too...

[7rojo7]

Every singer is different, mic that sounds good on one, dudu on another. The mic you choose depends on how your monitors are set up, or visaversa. Wedge in front=cardioid, double wedge=hypercardioid, with sidefills too=more difficult, IEM=less difficult. A hypercard will feedback on a wedge in front, a card will feedback on a double wedge.
The size of the stage and height of the ceiling are important too.
Compression can wreak havoc on stage, better if it's only for the FOH, fast attack and fast release, slow release will bring you some nasty problems.
Monitors are rung out to avoid feedback, FOH is calibrated to even out anomolies in the venue, it's better that you have two situations of eq.
Do you need lush or tight and dry? The whole chain can be chosen on these factors. Lush=tubes, tight=solid state, even though there are exceptions to this.
With any combination, the mic technique of the performer is crucial. I can't tell you how many good singers and wind players don't have the slightest idea. Don't cup the mic, this turns it into an omni, don't leave the mic close in front of your head or body for too long, it picks up everything behind it, wedges. Watch some Marvin Gaye vids.
The most influential part of the chain is the mic, everything else will follow suit.
Rock? Dynamics are usually better for this, hard loud music. Condensers for any thing else.
A Lexicon, a TC 2290 delay (tap tempo) and an Eventide harmonizer (thickening doubling) come in handy but sparingly and FOH only

[jude]

if your looking for tips on a gear rider. stick with midas and drawmer (for compression)... you have to be a total idiot not to get a good sound from those desks, at least in a live band situation

[Enginearing]

Dave Rat is known to use an Audix OM7, Midas H3000 console and a completely separate PA to achieve his ultimate Vocal sound for RHCP.

Mixing Red Hot Chili Peppers Live-On Tour with Red Hot Chili Peppers

[Sean Walker]

Oh, cut the kid some slack. lol While you are all right, Especially with the best crew you can afford part we could give him a place to start his quest. I'd look at some of the following gear bro. Heil PR35 mic, an ATI pro6 and a decent effects processor (Lexicon PCM or TC electronics ) should get you started in the right direction, although all of the posts are right you can't have one perfect chain for EVERY situation. This will sound a lot better (if you know how to use it) than the mackie you are probably using at the local club if you can get the sound guy to patch it in. Try some of the different options listed in all of the posts and find what sounds best on your voice.


Keep rockin,
Sean

[Dubai]

Good speakers
good amplifiers
good crossover
good equalizers
good cables
good consoles
good microphones
good wordclock
good fx
good synths

the following equipment is so good, you can train monkeys to use them.

loudspeakers:
EVA-2082S
Electro-Voice EVA-2082S 1220 Full-Range Dual Element Line Array Module
or.. Xi-1082
Electro-Voice Xi-1082 X-Array™ Xi-Series™ Speaker System

for subs the TM array.
YouTube - The TM Arrayâ„¢ A Technical Overview w/Thomas Mundorf (HD)
with...
TRansparence Professional Sound Audio Equipement Loudspeakers Subwoofers Electronics Horns Recone Repair
tr audio 18B2400 subwoofers.
or...
JBL 2241h

amplifiers:
Quested AP800 AP1300
or QSC DCA
Cinema Projection, Surround Sound, Stadium Theatres, Pro Audio, Design Consulting, Installations

go for analog crossovers & eqs,
Ashly gqx3102 & 1502
xr-4001
Ashly Audio Product Locator

or if digital, anything with Wordclock input, and the best masterclock you can buy, with the best cables:
dbx 4800
DriveRack® 4800 Loudspeaker Management System :: dbx® Professional Products
+
audio cc1
or antelope trinity + antelope 10M
or Rosendahl Nanosyncs HD
or Drawmer M-Clock with PS Audio Power Plant Premier
+
acoustic zen silver byte bnc cables.
or... Oyaide 510
***
loudspekaer cables:
Evidence Audio 500ft, roll, Siren 2.
or...
Gepco OFC HBW
or...
Mogami w310*
or...
Proel Diehard
***
mic pres:
John Hardy M-1 or M-2 or Twin
or Millenia Media hv3
or Burl Audio
Focusrite Liquid Channel
Focusrite Liquid 4Pre

analog compressors:
ART Pro VLA 2.
or...

if buy digital console or digital crossover,
use AES/EBU and buy also better converters...
Metric Halo LIU-8 or Metric Halo ULN-8

all synchronized in parallel with the master wordclock

spx2000
tc m4000
tc m6000 reverb and mastering for the FOH
tc Eqstation
eventide
lexicon
briscati
etc...
+
acoustic zen aes ebu cables.


mics?
shoeps
akg 414bxls
neumann
shure sm7b
the hand held version of the at4033
etc...

all equipment works better with better power...
PS Audio Power Plant Premier
has clean power, and replaces many Furman products.
but its limited to 1500w each.

or Big 20kw or 10KW Balanced Power Transformers form Equitech Q.
20wq
or..
10rq

each PS Audio has 1500w
probably would need more than 4x for all the audio equipment without including the power amps or lights...

better than PS Audio PPP its the Accuphase PS-1210.

useful protecting device:
Leveler RP24004A but its limited to dual 10A circuits.

other solution would be Eaton Power-Sure T800 10KW isolation transformers.
***
shielded power cables...
Monster Pro PowerLine 300, and Pro PL200 and Pro PL100
Evidence audio source power cables.

install the best ground copper bars you can.

if you buy the QSC DCA, install the optional transformers XF-1 bcs-3 card.


digital consoles?
2x Roland m-400 fully expanded minimum.
Roland RSS V-Mixer live mixing console Review in Mix magazine product review of the Roland RSS V-Mixer live mixing console
or...
Roalnd vs2480cd is better if fully expanded with optional cards vsfx2 and vsfx3
also with AudioRail or Roland s-4000 digital snakes with CAT6 cable.
probably better...the
mackie dxb
Mackie - Digital X Bus
mackie tt32, tt24

ETSlan.com PA8** PA9** digital transformers.

Synths:
Sonic Core Xite-1
Receptor,
V-Machine,
etc...

Controllers, Novation Remote SL mk1 and mk2
Mackie c4 pro, etc...

APC Surta UPS, feeding the PS Audio ppp
or Honda Inverter Generators with low distortion sinewave.

[Puffer Fish]

To me, as a singer and a live sound engineer, the very most important thing is ALWAYS--monitors. thumbsup

If they are in-ear you MUST have someone on the monitor desk you trust and will get your mix right--ALL NIGHT--not just on the first song. I have sung with in-ears where the guy drifts and then they are worthless and the best other gear in the world will not make up for it.

If they are wedges, they need to be over-the-top with vocals--I do not care what box it is. When it seems like it is too much, there had better be at least another couple dB of vocals left to add to the wedge(s).

If the singer can't hear themselves, it does not matter what else you have. When they hear themselves, you get the best performance they are able to give at that show--once again, regardless of what other gear you have.

Singers always love my rigs because I make certain they can hear. Sometimes it is as simple as reigning in the other instruments on a smaller stage so the stage volume is not an issue. Plus I always push the higher freqs to make the rig more audible. Yes, I have torched a lot of diaphragms in my days and I always keep an extra 2426 diaphragm for when I push it too far (again ) But that is what it takes for me, for my people, in my experience.

After that, I guess some bigger dollar mic--Shure KSM9, Nuemann KSM 105,.... Gear--it will all end up being the same higher-end stuff for a monitor desk. Really, right? No matter what sound company puts the pack together. And the front of house, well that will really depend upon the guy at the desk and what his (or her) fave rig is if they bring along their own stuff. Some folks that means a lap top and a USB cord for the Yamaha board in the theater at the next stop on the tour. For someone else that'll mean a rack of pres and comps and e.q.s--but in truth I have seen a lot less of the later and a lot more of the former.

A guy I knew who did tours with Clair Bros. (Billy Joel, U2, Rod Stewart,...) told me back when I was getting started: with vocals it is all monitors and with monitors it is all e.q.--tweaking out the boxes. (That was before in-ear.) He said he had a desk and racks of e.q.... parametrics to pull out transients and spikes and graphics to shape the tone. The comps were used to keep things under control. That is how I run my show and it works quite well.