Fathead Classical Guitar MS

[low_z]

Hello fellow Gear slutz! I recently bought a matched pair of Fathead Ribbons through Bayview Pro Audio. Yesterday was my first chance to try them out - Here is a very short snippet that I recorded in my parents living room (home for Turkey Day) while everyone was asleep.

I am posting this as a reference available for those who are interested in hearing the Fatheads in MS configuration. I manually decoded (copy side, flip phase, pan & adjust volumes etc.) No e.q., no compression - just a bit of ReaVerbate on side channels and a quick normalization. "Mixed" with no monitors :( just phones. Hope this is helpful for some of you writing your lists for Santa!

Guitar ~ (slightly to the left) 1 foot from Fathead in MS (Blumlein rotated 90deg) => FF400 (using built in pres)=>Reaper @ 44.1 24bit.

I am pretty happy with the results, esp. considering untreated (though decent sounding) room and no eq. Will do a test with my RNP tomorrow maybe(just came today ).

Go on, give er' a listen!

[Tomer1]

Sounds great!
What pres did you run these through?

[low_z]

Thanks Tomer! As I posted, the pres in the FF400 were used. Gain was set to 54db on each channel I think. The pres on the fireface units get so much crap here on GS, but I find them pretty usable. That being said, the fatheads are quite... well... fat sounding I guess. I will test with the RNP as soon as I have a chance! (I hope there is a significant difference at $475 for two channels!)

[ThatOlBluesSound]

It's pretty good!
But I'm sensing some sort of phase issue.Did you gain match the mics?
Perhaps it's my speakers acting funky...

Still cool though!

Edit: What guitar is it?

[low_z]

BluesSound - I also heard some "phasey" sounds when I played the file back on a system with LR Speakers very close to each other. Could this be due to separate reverbs set identically on the side channels? I may not have done the balance right on the mix. I brought the mid channel down quite a bit (4db or so) and used the ReaVerbate plugin (@ like -9db wet) on the S+ and S- channels. Like I said, no Monitors away from home, just phones :( I also may have set the gains off by a few db when recording. I can always post the dry signal mix if need be. Thanks for the feedback!

Edit: She's an Antonio Lorente Isabelle!

[Acoustic Cloud]

Sounds very nice! I have never done MS with 2 ribbons, always used a SDC as the mid. I bought a Triton audio dynamic adapter a while back, which allows dynamics to use phantom power, and it was a great purchase. It allows you to get ribbons further from a quieter source. Anyway, your setup there sounds real good.

[VincentBlack]

I believe the "Phase" issue might be coming from the rear side of the "mid" mic. Since the Fatheads are both figure 8, there seems to be another element that is causing a perceived phasing, the back-side of the "mid" mic. To my understanding, this is why you use a cardioid or single source as the mid mic (like the SDC that Acoustic Cloud mentioned), in an MS configuration.

Guitar sounds beautiful, nice chops too!

I purchased an original Fathead directly from Cascade several years ago Serial Number 606. I have ben very pleased with it and wish I would have bought 2 to do a Blumlein back then.

low_z, I have a question for you. Are these the newer "Round Backed" Fatheads?>FatHeads II? or the older version?

[low_z]

Acoustic Cloud - Thanks for the feedback! I did consider getting two of the Triton adaptors, but instead put the money (which I don't really have ) towards an FMR RNP. I bought the Fatheads specifically for recording classical strings and drum overheads (my only sdc is a dfegad Nady CM90). I have made decent recordings with the nady but meh...

Originally Posted by VincentBlack

I believe the "Phase" issue might be coming from the rear side of the "mid" mic. Since the Fatheads are both figure 8, there seems to be another element that is causing a perceived phasing, the back-side of the "mid" mic. To my understanding, this is why you use a cardioid or single source as the mid mic (like the SDC that Acoustic Cloud mentioned), in an MS configuration.

Guitar sounds beautiful, nice chops too!

I purchased an original Fathead directly from Cascade several years ago Serial Number 606. I have ben very pleased with it and wish I would have bought 2 to do a Blumlein back then.

I have a question for you. Are these the newer "Round Backed" Fatheads?>FatHeads II? or the older version?

First of all WELCOME TO GEARSLUTZ!!!!dfegad

Thanks for the kind words! I would be surprised if the phasey sound is always a result of using two fig 8 mics, as the mics came with a blumlein bar and a crash coarse in MS recording. I have heard many lovely recordings done with a stereo Royer mic ( the active one which is also two fig 8's). I probably just F'd something up along the way or messed up by putting reverb on just the side channels separately (Mid channel is totally dry).

My mics are the original Fatheads (4057 and 4059) and are the new round basket on both sides with a very pretty gold mesh/burgundy body color scheme! The very nice woman and the tech dude I spoke with at Cascade both told me there is no sonic difference between the two. I justified using the price difference in cash towards a pair of Mogami cables I received with the order.

[VincentBlack]

low_z thank you for the enthusiastic welcome!!!

I have been a gearslutz member for only a short while, but I have been involved with professional audio for quite some time, 20+ years.

The explanation of your phasing issue was based on my own experiences over the years. I have run into exactly the same issue when using 2 figure 8 mics in a MS set up in a "poorly treated" room, there seems to be a reflected sound that works its way into the blend, I think only exacerbated by the reverb treatment used. I'm certain that in a properly treated room, this affect would be negated.

BTW, your playing is what got me to comment in the first place. I was happy "lurking" on GS. I never, ever planned on posting, but was inspired by your dedication to learning how to actually play your instrument, which is rare these days and your dedication to the GS community, even on a holiday trip, you found time to contribute. I figured if you could take the time to do that, it was worth me coming out of the shadows to add my 2 cents and making my first ever post. Kudos.

[low_z]

BTW, your playing is what got me to comment in the first place. I was happy "lurking" on GS. I never, ever planned on posting, but was inspired by your dedication to learning how to actually play your instrument, which is rare these days and your dedication to the GS community, even on a holiday trip, you found time to contribute. I figured if you could take the time to do that, it was worth me coming out of the shadows to add my 2 cents and making my first ever post. Kudos.

Well that just makes me feel all warm and ...phasey? Glad you're "out of the shadows!" I'm sure you'll contribute much here on GS.

Regarding the room - unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I am leaving tomorrow and won't have time to record any more at my parents' house. I had planned on trying out the RNP, but I'm a dweeb and forgot to bring trs patch cables to go into the fireface.

I'll post examples as soon as I find time/space/cables to record. (I actually wrote a fun little ditty for recording, but alas, it will have to wait.) I am curious to hear the mix on my monitors, and also to see if I get the same effect with the new recording in my living room back home.

Is anyone else hearing phasey effects?

[Horking My Lunch]

Buying a pair of Fatheads was pretty much the best investment I've made in a while. Stellar mics for the price.

[low_z]

Yeah, for the type of music I record, I hardly touch LDC/SDC's anymore. I guess I'm just on a dynamics kick. I eventually will purchase a KEL or Mojave mulitipattern mic, but for now... Dude your screename is frickin hilariousthumbsup

[NorseHorse]

Just dropping by, and I wanted to chime in the "phase" issue. I'm listening on crappy speakers at the moment and don't hear it, but then again, they would only reveal if something was waaay off. Here are a few thoughts...

If you had your mics as close as possible, you shouldn't have any phase issues. And contrary to ThatOleBlues' suggestion, you don't need to level match mics. That's part of the beauty of M/S - changing to levels to determine the width. Judging by your gain structure (-4 on the sides relative to the mid), you should have a pretty decent balance (which you do).

If something sounds off to you, your likely culprit is the reverb. Try applying it to the whole mix after it's summed. Or... apply it just to the original side and then run it through a m/s plug, thereby preserving the true +/- mirror imaging required for m/s. By applying the reverb separately to the positive and negative side, you are no longer in TRUE m/s land.

Good luck! Sounds pretty good already. thumbsup

[low_z]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Just dropping by, and I wanted to chime in the "phase" issue. I'm listening on crappy speakers at the moment and don't hear it, but then again, they would only reveal if something was waaay off. Here are a few thoughts...

If you had your mics as close as possible, you shouldn't have any phase issues. And contrary to ThatOleBlues' suggestion, you don't need to level match mics. That's part of the beauty of M/S - changing to levels to determine the width. Judging by your gain structure (-4 on the sides relative to the mid), you should have a pretty decent balance (which you do).

If something sounds off to you, your likely culprit is the reverb. Try applying it to the whole mix after it's summed. Or... apply it just to the original side and then run it through a m/s plug, thereby preserving the true +/- mirror imaging required for m/s. By applying the reverb separately to the positive and negative side, you are no longer in TRUE m/s land.



Good luck! Sounds pretty good already. thumbsup

Thanks for dropping in NorseHorse! btw, what do you consider to be "crappy speakers?" My monitors are hardly pro (event tr5's), but definitely better than some options out there.
I made the recording with a blumlein pattern mic adaptor (rotated 90 deg so mid mic facing guitar) so I doubt any phase issues would have developed in mic placement. I will try your advice and put the reverb on a mix of the side tracks instead of on each side track individually to keep me in "true MS land" which sounds like the place to be. I may also just post the tracks dry - I suppose this is the real listening test. Thanks for the feedback!!
Edit: Just added mp3 files. ms402 is reverb on the sum of the sides , ms4dry is... dry

[ThatOlBluesSound]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Just dropping by, and I wanted to chime in the "phase" issue. I'm listening on crappy speakers at the moment and don't hear it, but then again, they would only reveal if something was waaay off. Here are a few thoughts...

If you had your mics as close as possible, you shouldn't have any phase issues. And contrary to ThatOleBlues' suggestion, you don't need to level match mics. That's part of the beauty of M/S - changing to levels to determine the width. Judging by your gain structure (-4 on the sides relative to the mid), you should have a pretty decent balance (which you do).

If something sounds off to you, your likely culprit is the reverb. Try applying it to the whole mix after it's summed. Or... apply it just to the original side and then run it through a m/s plug, thereby preserving the true +/- mirror imaging required for m/s. By applying the reverb separately to the positive and negative side, you are no longer in TRUE m/s land.

Good luck! Sounds pretty good already. thumbsup

Yup.
The speakers I was listening tend to play funky sometimes, so it might have been that. But I sensed something weird...It might have been the reverb.I'll hear them raw to see (hear ).

Oh and norsehorse's right! I totally forgot the nature of these mics.When I heard the "issue" my mind must have tricked me into thinking you were doing it with 3 mics hence why I asked about if you had gain matched the sides. At least, that's how they taught me M/S (with 3 mics ).

Sorry if I confused you.

[low_z]

Originally Posted by ThatOlBluesSound

Yup.
The speakers I was listening tend to play funky sometimes, so it might have been that. But I sensed something weird...It might have been the reverb.I'll hear them raw to see (hear ).

Oh and norsehorse's right! I totally forgot the nature of these mics.When I heard the "issue" my mind must have tricked me into thinking you were doing it with 3 mics hence why I asked about if you had gain matched the sides. At least, that's how they taught me M/S (with 3 mics ).

Sorry if I confused you.

No worries, how did the dry files sound to you?