Help me choose a backup recorder

studiotogo · 23rd November 2009

Hey all,

I've been doing research on this and can't seem to find a suitable answer on my own, so I'm throwing it to you.

Here's my setup:
I'm doing location recording. My main rig consists of a presonus firestudio tube and my macbook pro running reaper (Win XP and bootcamp). I've got the A.R.T. T8 transformer mic splitter which allows me to daisy-chain off the live board and his preamps when necessary. I've also got an 01v96v2 for monitoring/summing/splitting when I need.

Here's my problem:
For obvious reasons, I would like to use a backup recorder. I would prefer something that is not computer-based for stability reasons. I can use the DSP mixer in the FSTube to provide me with six mixes, so I'm looking for something that can do 8 tracks at a time. My other option would be to use the 01v and record the busses, so optical would be the easiest i/o method there.

I've been looking at the Korg D-888, but it's a little spendy. I've also been looking at the Zoom R16, but I'm still a bit leery about zoom and their quality.

The last piece of the puzzle is that I just sold my Mackie 1402 for $200, so I'd like to stay in that price range (good 'ol WAF), but if it's really worth it, I'm not totally opposed to saving up.

Any advice you could give on the products I've suggested or perhaps some that I've overlooked would be appreciated.

My apologies for the rambliness of this post, but I wanted to get this out and start the discussion. Thanks for your help!

bishopthomas · 23rd November 2009

Quite a bit out of your budget, but if you don't mind saving up... The HD24 can grow with your rig as it can record 24 tracks. Simple, convenient (adat optical built in), more stable than a laptop...

videoteque · 23rd November 2009

8 tracks in the $200 it will be hard!!!

If you mix your tracks with your interface before your back-up is very risky. If you have a well cared for computer, your biggest cause of problem maybe the power supply. If your power supply fails, all of your system fails...

studiotogo · 24th November 2009

Thanks for the replies.

I've seen the HD24, but that's a bit outside my price range. And yet, looking over the remote rig pics thread, it seems to be the backbone of everybody's rig. But if I'm spending that kind of money, I'd REALLY like to save up for that JoeCo BlackBox recorder. That thing looks sweet.

As for recording busses off my interface the FSTube keeps my DSP mixer settings even if I yank the firewire cable, so we're good there. Still, using the 01v in between would probably be safer on some level.

I guess I'm not so much concerned with hardware failing on my laptop as some hiccup in the software causing either a glitch or an incomplete recording.

It seems like the D888 would be a pretty good fit and that I should just save up for it. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any gear I had overlooked before I commit.

sonare · 24th November 2009

The Korg is 8 channels of 16 bit (ugh) and used is about $600. The HD24 (not XL) is 24 channels of 24 bit and can be found for not much more on ebay.

And you say you can't afford it?

Rich

studiotogo · 24th November 2009

Ok. You're right. I had been thinking that if I went with the HD24, I should only be considering the HD24XR which I was seeing on ebay for about $1200. However, you make a good point. Even the "lower quality" HD24 most likely still head and shoulders above the D888. (Though I did have visions of using the D888 as a simple mixer in a pinch now that my Mackie is gone.) Perhaps I should look at HD24's a bit more seriously.

sonare · 24th November 2009

The fact that the HD24 is 24-bit makes it an automatic winner. Look at the price point on both machines-- one is serious, and the other isn't.

Back when I was beta testing a hardware/software combo (what it was isn't pertinent) I had a software freeze during a piano/violin concert. The HD24 backup saved the day-- and in spite of having some of the best ears in the WORLD judging the results (the musicians) no one said a word about the sound of it all.

Rich

DCtoDaylight · 24th November 2009

So, that "plain" HD24 does look like a pretty good option.

Not to hijack the thread, but what if someone just wanted two channels of backup at 24-bit - something that would allow, say, a main stereo pair to be backed up via SPDIF? It may be that it's worth just biting the bullet on an HD24, but I've been thinking that a little handheld unit might be handy, and if it could serve as at least a basic backup, that would definitely help justify the purchase.

Ozpeter · 24th November 2009

I wouldn't want anyone to think the D888 is any kind of disaster. I tend to use it as my main recorder for symphonic recordings for FM radio in preference to the laptop route and the recordings don't get cleared for broadcast until the conductor (some with international reputations) have heard and approved them, and I've never had one rejected on D888-related grounds - comments if any are usually positive. But obviously you should buy the best you can.

I back up the first (most important) channels of the D888 to an Edirol R-44. The Korg continues to put out audio from the mixer section even if the drive has problems. But for concert recording it's vital never to add to D888 recording without creating a new "song" for reasons explained at StudioTrax Forums - View Single Post - D888 tips

The D888 mixer section is 40 bit. A to D is 24 bit 64 times oversampled. Recording format is 16 bit - I don't know whether it's simply truncated from the 24 bits or dithered.

If you had any way to borrow or hire one of these alternatives before purchase, that would help you decide on which suits your personal requirements. Eg some people love the D888, some hate it, depending on exactly what they are using it with and for what purpose.

studiotogo · 4th December 2009

OK guys, I'm still wondering about this. From everything I've read, the HD24 is the way to go, but that's way out of budget and/or I can't find any sufficiently cheap used ones. So, for the moment, I'm moving on.

I've been looking at the Yamaha AW4416. It seems cool because it is very closely related to my 01v96v2. I can go direct into it via the 8 analog ins and eventually add the ADAT cards to keep a digital chain and eventually get 16 simultaneous tracks. The only downside to this setup seems to be that the unit is a bit old and getting the tracks out of it and into my DAW (reaper) would be a bit tedious. However, I'm using this as a backup recorder, so if everything goes as planned I won't be using it's output much.

Any thoughts? Other units I've considered would be the Korg D888 or the Zoom R16.
Thanks for the input!

Studiodawg · 4th December 2009

I've used a Zoom R16 as back up all Fall. For $400 it's cheap insurance. I like the fact that I can use either XLR or 1/4" inputs on each channel. It's so easy to use.

studiotogo · 4th December 2009

Are you happy with the sound quality?

Studiodawg · 4th December 2009

Sound quality is fine. Their converters are quite detailed. I simply send a 2nd signal from my Grace 101 stereo pair of preamps to the Zoom R16 and "I'm safe" in case Rig One glitches. Also, with 8 tracks there is instant wiggle room in case the location recording throws a bunch of curve balls. Do what you want, but this is cheap ($400), effective and I have a cool little unit to mess around with when I'm not working and am sick of computers. (I never had anything from Zoom before this, but when it came out I got it right away because it is so mobile/small/feature packed).

studer58 · 4th December 2009

I'm in the same boat as studiodawg... was using an Audiofire 8 with Reaper but got sick and tired of the occasional and unpredictable Firewire crashes and freezes which caused me to lose valuable concert minutes at each orchestral gig, so now I run either direct line out levels from my DAV BG8 preamp bank straight into the Zoom R16 (lowish gain on the DAV into zero gain on the R16 universal ins: not quite the same as bypassing the R16 preamps but close ascanget), or else line outs from the Audiofire into the R16 @24 bit ...which makes for a perfect backup, as the R16 sits silently in the corner and begs to be ignored completely. I haven't done an Audiofire vs Zoom shootout sound comparison yet, but the Zoom preserves all the dynamics and balls you'd want from your location sound. Just don't expect its 2 inbuilt mic pres to be stellar...rely on your outboards to do that for you, and present the R16 with something worthy to record !
Ray

Studiodawg · 7th December 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58

I'm in the same boat as studiodawg...Just don't expect its 2 inbuilt mic pres to be stellar...rely on your outboards to do that for you, and present the R16 with something worthy to record !
Ray

Well put Ray!thumbsup

studiotogo · 22nd December 2009

Figured I should post back in case anyone was biting their nails over my decision. I decided to pick up a Yamaha AW4416 that I found on ebay. It's got the brains of my 01v, so I'm already familiar with it. It'll record 16 track simultaneously although I'll need to get an option card or two to do it. The only downside of it is that there is a 6.4GB song limit, meaning that recording will stop even though there is still disk space. One other thing I wish I could change is that the best way to get projects out of it is through the CD drive which is time consuming. But again, I got it as a backup and hope to never need it. I realize the HD24 would have been a better option, but this was more budget friendly and is still a very nice piece of gear.

Thanks for all your input.

23rd November 2009	#1
studiotogo Gear interested Joined: Nov 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 22 Thread Starter	Help me choose a backup recorder Hey all, I've been doing research on this and can't seem to find a suitable answer on my own, so I'm throwing it to you. Here's my setup: I'm doing location recording. My main rig consists of a presonus firestudio tube and my macbook pro running reaper (Win XP and bootcamp). I've got the A.R.T. T8 transformer mic splitter which allows me to daisy-chain off the live board and his preamps when necessary. I've also got an 01v96v2 for monitoring/summing/splitting when I need. Here's my problem: For obvious reasons, I would like to use a backup recorder. I would prefer something that is not computer-based for stability reasons. I can use the DSP mixer in the FSTube to provide me with six mixes, so I'm looking for something that can do 8 tracks at a time. My other option would be to use the 01v and record the busses, so optical would be the easiest i/o method there. I've been looking at the Korg D-888, but it's a little spendy. I've also been looking at the Zoom R16, but I'm still a bit leery about zoom and their quality. The last piece of the puzzle is that I just sold my Mackie 1402 for $200, so I'd like to stay in that price range (good 'ol WAF), but if it's really worth it, I'm not totally opposed to saving up. Any advice you could give on the products I've suggested or perhaps some that I've overlooked would be appreciated. My apologies for the rambliness of this post, but I wanted to get this out and start the discussion. Thanks for your help!

23rd November 2009	#3
videoteque Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2006 Location: Near Rome, Italy Posts: 829	8 tracks in the $200 it will be hard!!! If you mix your tracks with your interface before your back-up is very risky. If you have a well cared for computer, your biggest cause of problem maybe the power supply. If your power supply fails, all of your system fails... __________________ Xavier Plagaro -------------------- Videoteque.eu

24th November 2009	#5
sonare Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2004 Location: southeast Posts: 1,393	The Korg is 8 channels of 16 bit (ugh) and used is about $600. The HD24 (not XL) is 24 channels of 24 bit and can be found for not much more on ebay. And you say you can't afford it? Rich __________________ Sonare Recordings www.sonarerecordings.com

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23rd November 2009	#2
bishopthomas Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,565	Quite a bit out of your budget, but if you don't mind saving up... The HD24 can grow with your rig as it can record 24 tracks. Simple, convenient (adat optical built in), more stable than a laptop...

24th November 2009	#8
DCtoDaylight Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 603	So, that "plain" HD24 does look like a pretty good option. Not to hijack the thread, but what if someone just wanted two channels of backup at 24-bit - something that would allow, say, a main stereo pair to be backed up via SPDIF? It may be that it's worth just biting the bullet on an HD24, but I've been thinking that a little handheld unit might be handy, and if it could serve as at least a basic backup, that would definitely help justify the purchase.

24th November 2009	#9
Ozpeter Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 624	I wouldn't want anyone to think the D888 is any kind of disaster. I tend to use it as my main recorder for symphonic recordings for FM radio in preference to the laptop route and the recordings don't get cleared for broadcast until the conductor (some with international reputations) have heard and approved them, and I've never had one rejected on D888-related grounds - comments if any are usually positive. But obviously you should buy the best you can. I back up the first (most important) channels of the D888 to an Edirol R-44. The Korg continues to put out audio from the mixer section even if the drive has problems. But for concert recording it's vital never to add to D888 recording without creating a new "song" for reasons explained at StudioTrax Forums - View Single Post - D888 tips The D888 mixer section is 40 bit. A to D is 24 bit 64 times oversampled. Recording format is 16 bit - I don't know whether it's simply truncated from the 24 bits or dithered. If you had any way to borrow or hire one of these alternatives before purchase, that would help you decide on which suits your personal requirements. Eg some people love the D888, some hate it, depending on exactly what they are using it with and for what purpose.

4th December 2009	#10
studiotogo Gear interested Joined: Nov 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 22 Thread Starter	OK guys, I'm still wondering about this. From everything I've read, the HD24 is the way to go, but that's way out of budget and/or I can't find any sufficiently cheap used ones. So, for the moment, I'm moving on. I've been looking at the Yamaha AW4416. It seems cool because it is very closely related to my 01v96v2. I can go direct into it via the 8 analog ins and eventually add the ADAT cards to keep a digital chain and eventually get 16 simultaneous tracks. The only downside to this setup seems to be that the unit is a bit old and getting the tracks out of it and into my DAW (reaper) would be a bit tedious. However, I'm using this as a backup recorder, so if everything goes as planned I won't be using it's output much. Any thoughts? Other units I've considered would be the Korg D888 or the Zoom R16. Thanks for the input!

4th December 2009	#11
Studiodawg Gear addict Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 362	I've used a Zoom R16 as back up all Fall. For $400 it's cheap insurance. I like the fact that I can use either XLR or 1/4" inputs on each channel. It's so easy to use.

4th December 2009	#14
studer58 Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 513	I'm in the same boat as studiodawg... was using an Audiofire 8 with Reaper but got sick and tired of the occasional and unpredictable Firewire crashes and freezes which caused me to lose valuable concert minutes at each orchestral gig, so now I run either direct line out levels from my DAV BG8 preamp bank straight into the Zoom R16 (lowish gain on the DAV into zero gain on the R16 universal ins: not quite the same as bypassing the R16 preamps but close ascanget), or else line outs from the Audiofire into the R16 @24 bit ...which makes for a perfect backup, as the R16 sits silently in the corner and begs to be ignored completely. I haven't done an Audiofire vs Zoom shootout sound comparison yet, but the Zoom preserves all the dynamics and balls you'd want from your location sound. Just don't expect its 2 inbuilt mic pres to be stellar...rely on your outboards to do that for you, and present the R16 with something worthy to record ! Ray

22nd December 2009	#16
studiotogo Gear interested Joined: Nov 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 22 Thread Starter	Figured I should post back in case anyone was biting their nails over my decision. I decided to pick up a Yamaha AW4416 that I found on ebay. It's got the brains of my 01v, so I'm already familiar with it. It'll record 16 track simultaneously although I'll need to get an option card or two to do it. The only downside of it is that there is a 6.4GB song limit, meaning that recording will stop even though there is still disk space. One other thing I wish I could change is that the best way to get projects out of it is through the CD drive which is time consuming. But again, I got it as a backup and hope to never need it. I realize the HD24 would have been a better option, but this was more budget friendly and is still a very nice piece of gear. Thanks for all your input.