Building first mobile rig

[JazzP]

As I am going to step deeper into the world of recording I'm planning to build a mobile rig for the first time, so I could use some advise/considerations. Hope you guys can help me out. Great forum by the way (first post).

A little background info: I'm a an semi-pro musician/composer with a local studio for composing/mixing, and I recently received an offer to regularly start record live gigs for a (jazz/pop-) band, including mixing down. In my own studio I work with a Soundcraft Ghost console combined with an Echo Audiofire 12 interface for recording my piano/synths/rhodes (sometimes vocals), and I have some more outboard (TC and more); I use Cakewalk Sonar as DAW software. I do have quite some experience with hd-tracking and mixing; although I lack the in-depth hands-on experience of live recording, I am familiar with the technics and possibilities/limits (I've done a few recording sessions in a really good equiped studio as musician, so I always took the ability to look around, and I've been on stage a quite a lot. Oh, and I did multitracked my own band via direct ouputs during a gig once; it was quite ok).
I don't have much experience on mic placement etc, so at first I think I will have to rely on the FOH engineers, and obtain my signals from the FOH console (direct outputs); as far as I know the same engineer/equipment will accompany the band on gigs, so the PA should always be more or less the same.

This is my plan for a first mobile rig build in a 4-6HE flightcase:
- Laptop + external harddrive (DAW software: Cakewalk Sonar 8)
- Interfaces: Echo Audiofire 12 + Echo Audiofire Pre8 (I already own a AF12), 20 inputs total (or 2 x AF12 for 24 inputs, but then I have no ADAT available for feature expandings).
- Neutrik TRS patchbay at the back of the flightcase for easy cabling and saving connectors of the interfaces.
- Power conditioner?
- Loads of TRS snakes (or TRS to XLR) to connect to FOH console
- Small mackie VLZ3-pro console + headphones for monitoring inputs (already have this).

What do you guys think of this setup and approach? Am I missing something critical? I currently do not have a separate preamp included for the vocals; is it wise to invest in a mid-range preamp for the lead singer (and split it before the FOH preamps), or will the output from the FOH preamps (probably Allen&Heath GL2400, Midas Venice or Soundtracs Topaz) be sufficient for recording live? The lead singer will probably use a dynamic mic on stage.

[bishopthomas]

Are you always going to be the FOH engineer while recording? If not you WILL have problems taking line level outputs from the FOH console. I (and others here) would recommend a splitter and separate preamps for the recording chain. Also, if you are serious about doing this and the recordings are not just "for fun," think about investing in a backup recorder. The HD24 is a great machine, and if you're only going to use one machine to capture the once in a lifetime performance, I would go with that over the laptop.

[mixedupsteve]

The AF12 is firewire I/O only and the Pre8 is ADAT and Firewire. How do you plan on running these together? Can these be daisychained?

[JazzP]

You mean being the FOH engineer or being near the FOH? I am not going to do the FOH mixing, but only the recording (next to the FOH in first instance). I realise I will have to rely on the signal after the FOH preamps, hoping the engineer will keep the signals below 0 dBFS (I assume that is what you're aiming at?). I do agree using splitter + own preamps is favorable to keep the signals in hand, but I'm not sure if I can invest in so much equipment in one time, so I will have to do it gradually.
Backup machine... should do that indeed, but it's the same story on investments. I hope it will become all more serious than fun (that is what I aim for in the future), but I feel more comfortable in making a small step first into some more simple projects, and then take some more bigger steps when I have more hands-on experience.

@mixedupsteve: yes, Echo Audiofire equipment can be daisychained. So combining an AF12 with an AF pre8 will result in 12+8 analog i/o and a possibility to add another converter via ADAT (to the Pre8). Or just use 2 firewire ports on the DAW (which will require an additional expresscard with firewire ports for a laptop).

[bishopthomas]

Yes, I mean being the FOH engineer. Having to rely on someone else's settings WILL get you into trouble. I know you don't want to hear it but it IS the truth. Are you always connecting to the same console? Some will have direct outs and some will not. The ones with will either be pre or post fader, the latter being detrimental to your recording. What happens when the guitar amp is so loud that it doesn't need to be in the house speakers? It will not pass to your recorder.

I would suggest using your Mackie mixer for preamps if you cannot afford to purchase anything and try to find another answer for your confidence monitoring.

[mixedupsteve]

JazzP,
Ok thats good, most firewire devices when daisychained will show up as two I/O devices and some DAWs don't like that. So I would check that and check Cakewalk too.

[JazzP]

Bishopthomas, I think you are right. I did record my own band once from the direct ouputs of the FOH via my Audiofire 12 (put a friend with a laptop and my interface next to the FOH), and one of the channels with the keys actually clipped a few times. Having control of the signals into preamps would be the best indeed.
I just realized that if I buy a Audiofire Pre8, I will only have to add one addional 8ch preamp (OctoPre, Digimax or similar) and plug it into the AF12 to have at least 16 channel with preamps available; the four remaining line inputs in the AF12 could be used for DI's (bass, keys etc.) or maybe room mics via the FOH (easier to have controlled and not that critical).

@steve: now I really get your question. Two daisychained Audiofires will indeed show up as two I/O devices, both recognized by the drivers (daisychaining is supported by Echo Audio). I know Sonar can handle multiple interfaces, and it will even let you assign friendly names (aliases) to the driver i/o names for easy identification. So I don't worry about that part.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by JazzP

Bishopthomas, I think you are right. I did record my own band once from the direct ouputs of the FOH via my Audiofire 12 (put a friend with a laptop and my interface next to the FOH), and one of the channels with the keys actually clipped a few times. Having control of the signals into preamps would be the best indeed.
I just realized that if I buy a Audiofire Pre8, I will only have to add one addional 8ch preamp (OctoPre, Digimax or similar) and plug it into the AF12 to have at least 16 channel with preamps available; the four remaining line inputs in the AF12 could be used for DI's (bass, keys etc.) or maybe room mics via the FOH (easier to have controlled and not that critical).

I love it when a plan comes together!

[ddageek]

First you need a splitter (very few FOH guys are even going to let you use their direct outs) and don't skimp on the splitter cheap transformers distort way to easily! If you can solder think Jensen transformers!

at 16 inputs your going to find yourself running out fast!

and The big difference between beginners is having a back up!

I think the patchbay is a great Idea but the low end ones are going to ware out so as a patch panel DIY an XLR panel so you an use common XLR mic cables (you can always find a mic cable in a pinch! XLR to quarter are harder to find when the doo doo hits the fan!

[JazzP]

Thnx for your input so far, guys! I have enough info to build on for now; next week I will be hearing more details on the upcoming big project, and then I can start to put everything together hopefully... 16+4 inputs will be enough for starting, expanding will be easy if necessary.

[Fred Pearson]

Originally Posted by JazzP

As I am going to step deeper into the world of recording I'm planning to build a mobile rig for the first time, so I could use some advise/considerations. Hope you guys can help me out. Great forum by the way (first post).

A little background info: I'm a an semi-pro musician/composer with a local studio for composing/mixing, and I recently received an offer to regularly start record live gigs for a (jazz/pop-) band, including mixing down. In my own studio I work with a Soundcraft Ghost console combined with an Echo Audiofire 12 interface for recording my piano/synths/rhodes (sometimes vocals), and I have some more outboard (TC and more); I use Cakewalk Sonar as DAW software. I do have quite some experience with hd-tracking and mixing; although I lack the in-depth hands-on experience of live recording, I am familiar with the technics and possibilities/limits (I've done a few recording sessions in a really good equiped studio as musician, so I always took the ability to look around, and I've been on stage a quite a lot. Oh, and I did multitracked my own band via direct ouputs during a gig once; it was quite ok).
I don't have much experience on mic placement etc, so at first I think I will have to rely on the FOH engineers, and obtain my signals from the FOH console (direct outputs); as far as I know the same engineer/equipment will accompany the band on gigs, so the PA should always be more or less the same.

This is my plan for a first mobile rig build in a 4-6HE flightcase:
- Laptop + external harddrive (DAW software: Cakewalk Sonar 8)
- Interfaces: Echo Audiofire 12 + Echo Audiofire Pre8 (I already own a AF12), 20 inputs total (or 2 x AF12 for 24 inputs, but then I have no ADAT available for feature expandings).
- Neutrik TRS patchbay at the back of the flightcase for easy cabling and saving connectors of the interfaces.
- Power conditioner?
- Loads of TRS snakes (or TRS to XLR) to connect to FOH console
- Small mackie VLZ3-pro console + headphones for monitoring inputs (already have this).

What do you guys think of this setup and approach? Am I missing something critical? I currently do not have a separate preamp included for the vocals; is it wise to invest in a mid-range preamp for the lead singer (and split it before the FOH preamps), or will the output from the FOH preamps (probably Allen&Heath GL2400, Midas Venice or Soundtracs Topaz) be sufficient for recording live? The lead singer will probably use a dynamic mic on stage.

I'd personally scrap the desk and just take a split of the line outs from the FOH console. Then you can mix everything in the box without lengthening the signal chain or adding more A/D D/A stages.

Peace

[bishopthomas]

He's not the FOH engineer, so why be at the mercy of someone else's gain structure ( and perhaps fader movements)?