Keys to mixing Stage monitors, the Do's and Dont's

[BFSound]

Hey Guys i would like to know of the keys to mixing stage monitors successfully. Mainly vocals but in general is fine too. Do;s and Dont's. Any tips or pieces of equipment that help. Good Eq's to use.

Thanks

[valleysound]

Eq and squeek out the system before the band takes the stage. Nothing will kill a musician's confidence in you more than a blast of feedback.

[bishopthomas]

Learn your frequencies so that you can grab the right one when feedback does happen. A decent 31 band graphic should be used on each mix. Since you seem to want specific gear I would recommend Klark Teknik, BSS Opal, Ashly. Long throw faders are nice even though they take up more rack space. Know the polar patterns of microphones. If you're not getting the gain before feedback try positioning the wedges differently or trying a different mic before hacking away at the EQ. Using good quality components make all the difference in the world. Some of my favorite wedges are JBL VRX/SRX, EAW SM15, L'Acoustics. In the end, though, realize that you cannot defy the laws of physics. If the band is on a tiny stage with full stacks and a thrashing drummer then you're not going to make magic happen. Good luck explaining that to the band, though...

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Learn your frequencies so that you can grab the right one when feedback does happen. A decent 31 band graphic should be used on each mix. Since you seem to want specific gear I would recommend Klark Teknik, BSS Opal, Ashly. Long throw faders are nice even though they take up more rack space. Know the polar patterns of microphones. If you're not getting the gain before feedback try positioning the wedges differently or trying a different mic before hacking away at the EQ. Using good quality components make all the difference in the world. Some of my favorite wedges are JBL VRX/SRX, EAW SM15, L'Acoustics. In the end, though, realize that you cannot defy the laws of physics. If the band is on a tiny stage with full stacks and a thrashing drummer then you're not going to make magic happen. Good luck explaining that to the band, though...

Thanks for the insight I switched the Lead vox monitors to 1 in the center for only himself and 1 L, 1R for himself and any other one he wants to hear. I has two mixes both Eq'd with 31 band Eq's (behringer, nothing too nice). The thing i currently face is the lead vocalist i mix for wants Fx in his mix's which always creates feedback! Even the studio engineer where they are creating they're new album told him to get used to his own dry voice, which from what i learned is how monitors are supposed to sound...

-Dry, cut the lows and highs..

[Jim vanBergen]

Never had a problem getting decent vox FX in their monitors, unless it was out of proportion or the wrong thing. What kind of FX? Use shortened 'verbs, and single or double tap delays. The FX used for monitors should be DIFFERENT devices than what is used for FOH, and tweaked for that mix. Usually an effect will have too much low/low mids when what the singer needs to hear is the mids/high mids for themselves.

I second the note that you need to really understand frequencies, as well as your own equipment- the capabilities of the wedges onstage, exactly how the polar pattern works, how the pattern of the vocal mics work, and how both elements interact. The laws of physics can NOT be broken, you have boundaries to stay within but it can all be done correctly when you approach things right.

Hope this helps!

JvB

Originally Posted by BFSound

Thanks for the insight I switched the Lead vox monitors to 1 in the center for only himself and 1 L, 1R for himself and any other one he wants to hear. I has two mixes both Eq'd with 31 band Eq's (behringer, nothing too nice). The thing i currently face is the lead vocalist i mix for wants Fx in his mix's which always creates feedback! Even the studio engineer where they are creating they're new album told him to get used to his own dry voice, which from what i learned is how monitors are supposed to sound...

-Dry, cut the lows and highs..

[tourtelot]

Don't allow ANY member of the band to throws things at you.

D.

[bishopthomas]

What kind of music is this? You're never going to get screamingly loud, in your face vocals in the monitors using reverb. For rock shows and loud stages keep the effects off the stage. More than likely it is not critical to the singer's performance, he just wants to hear it like it is on the CD. For low volume acoustic music where he wants it to sound "pretty" instead of loud then sure, throw a little verb in the mix. But on a loud stage all effects will do is muddy up the mix, causing your singer to want more level than would be necessary without the verb. Two things that let me know I'm dealing with amateur musicians: EFX in the monitors and "just give me a little bit of everything."

[joelpatterson]

"and when you're done, more of everything else."

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Never had a problem getting decent vox FX in their monitors, unless it was out of proportion or the wrong thing. What kind of FX? Use shortened 'verbs, and single or double tap delays. The FX used for monitors should be DIFFERENT devices than what is used for FOH, and tweaked for that mix. Usually an effect will have too much low/low mids when what the singer needs to hear is the mids/high mids for themselves.

I second the note that you need to really understand frequencies, as well as your own equipment- the capabilities of the wedges onstage, exactly how the polar pattern works, how the pattern of the vocal mics work, and how both elements interact. The laws of physics can NOT be broken, you have boundaries to stay within but it can all be done correctly when you approach things right.

Hope this helps!

JvB

I do not know the exact make up of what he had going as far as Fx settings. He was using the TC helicon foot type Fx its really old though and took a digger. That was used in chain right after his mic so monitors and FOH were the same efects. I also agree with the second half of your post Jim, Im still young but im learning my freq's and the physics behind wedges and mics

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

What kind of music is this? You're never going to get screamingly loud, in your face vocals in the monitors using reverb. For rock shows and loud stages keep the effects off the stage. More than likely it is not critical to the singer's performance, he just wants to hear it like it is on the CD. For low volume acoustic music where he wants it to sound "pretty" instead of loud then sure, throw a little verb in the mix. But on a loud stage all effects will do is muddy up the mix, causing your singer to want more level than would be necessary without the verb. Two things that let me know I'm dealing with amateur musicians: EFX in the monitors and "just give me a little bit of everything."

Music is Metal/ Fusion, Slipknot style with influences like floyd etc... And i agree thats what i struggle with is getting that in your face loud with effects in the wedges. Its alway more, more, more. after i had already set the volume and rung out the frequencies. And i dont think Fx are that important either, they have just been there so long he is used to his pedal thing and having a little slap back on his voice. Last week we played with no effects and i was able to ring out his monitors and get his mic screaming loud.

Thanks for the advice guys keep em coming...

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by BFSound

Last week we played with no effects and i was able to ring out his monitors and get his mic screaming loud.

Thanks for the advice guys keep em coming...

Great,
Make sure the monitors are in the right place and pointed at the persons ears. I've seen many acts where the monitors were pointed at the knees of the player. Sometimes I use a piece of 2x4 to prop up the monitors front. Check your mics spec sheet for patterns so you can put the monitors in the nulls.

[jeremyglover]

good point, sometimes you need to be a couple of feet back to have the monitors hit you in the right spot.

i try and avoid fx in the monitor and keep the stage volume down when possible. as musicians know everything, it's not always easy to convince them to try something different and of course if they point the mic at the monitor and it feeds back, it's you fault !!!

keep it up!

[BFSound]

Thanks for the info.

His previous monitors set up was just a L/R monitor about 3 feet apart set a a slight degree pointed in. Very slight though. The monitors point up perfectly.

Currently I set up a center monitor just for himself (lead vox) And thats its own mix. Then the two out L/R monitors for anything else he might like to hear as well as some more of himself, Mix #2.

[Enginearing]

y split the mic signal before his pedal so you can have wet and dry channels.

Remember Lemmy's golden rule... ELEE. Everything louder than everything else

oh and the lass from Katzenjammer would like some more...

[DannyL]

My Favorite monitor comment of all time was (by a monitor engineer):
"Let me get this straight..... you want everything louder than everything else?"

I would suggest using cut only eq. Boosting freq's is most often going to cause more problems than it will solve.

Getting the band to use amp stands will help you (and them) keep the SPL's down on the stage. I had a guitarist once (although in a live recording situation) who was playing ungodly loud. I put his Mesa Boogie on a chair, without touching a single knob. Then he played. He almost fell over from the shock of the volume. After that the session went as smooth as silk...the band was also much happier as they could now hear themselves.

My 2¢.

Danny

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by Enginearing

y split the mic signal before his pedal so you can have wet and dry channels.

His pedal took a digger. Was pretty old and used alot on the road. Lots of beer and vomit has been spilled on that thing

From my research some people do a little Fx in monitors with no issues some and most dont evey use Fx in monitors ( which is the aproach i would like to take!). If i can i would like to for the singer ad something to his mix. I was told just use a seperate Fx unit for his monitor seperate from FOH. I wouldn't apply any outlandish effects just something minor.

Thanks guys

[tourtelot]

I used to have two dis-connected pots on my panel, one labeled "funk" and one labeled "presence" so I could give my lead vox more of what he wanted and then, even more.

At one time, I regularly had about 30 12s and 15s and 18 or so JBL HF drivers on radial horns pointed back at the band. Madness! The drummer played in front of 8 15s and two JBL 2407 on horns.

I NEVER did not wear plugs on that stage. I used to mix wearing David Clark "Mickey Mouse" ear protectors with some Sennheiser headphone drivers enclosed. . . .and wore the plug in my belt!

Ah, the good old days (1980s.)

D.

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

I used to have two dis-connected pots on my panel, one labeled "funk" and one labeled "presence" so I could give my lead vox more of what he wanted and then, even more.

Im a young engineer so im not familiar with this please explain more. Pots? And what was the "funk" and "presence"

Thanks very much

[bishopthomas]

I like the Y split approach. Send him only the dry signal and he'll probably never even notice.

[BFSound]

Yea right he would notice his dry voice in a second! Plus like i said his pedal has been used for years and repaired and finally broke.

[tourtelot]

The pots didn't actually do anything. Not a thing!

"Funk" and "presence" were some mythical sound that he wanted to hear in his wedges. I'd just nod sagely and crank up the knobs and he'd smile, nod back and go about his business. Worked like a charm.

D.

[hobson]

Had a long career mixing monitors - to be honest, all of my early years in sound involved mixing monitors from FOH - I really didn't want to be bothered... It was when I got hired at HOB NOLA in the early days that the house engineer Charles "Chopper" Brady introduced to mixing stage monitors - it's a real skill - direct interactivety with the artist(s) and frequency recognition sharpening drills every day! When the performer hears things better, generally speaking, they perform better.

Learned and/or Reinforced:
1. Good gain structure
2. Frequency recognition
3. Problem solving
4. Keeping my head while everyone else is losing theirs
5. As long as it's not the "suck" knob (thanks Gary Larson) - placebo adjustments can solve many problems.
6. Beware continual additive mixing, take something away to make room for something else or inversely make something seem louder.

Biggest advice I can offer OP: try to always have a Cue wedge (hopefully similar to all other wedges) - know what the performer is hearing in his mix so you can better make adjustments. In addition, have EQs inserted rather than in-line - that way you hear the curve in your cue wedge.

[63hz]

try not to notch out more than 4 or 5 frequencies
make them loud full and clear

[Jim vanBergen]

Bravo, Hobson. I could not agree more about #3 and #4 which we all seemed to bypass.

GREAT People skills are really important in making an artist feel comfortable, knowing what they want, and how to keep them happy.

Originally Posted by hobson

Had a long career mixing monitors - to be honest, all of my early years in sound involved mixing monitors from FOH - I really didn't want to be bothered... It was when I got hired at HOB NOLA in the early days that the house engineer Charles "Chopper" Brady introduced to mixing stage monitors - it's a real skill - direct interactivety with the artist(s) and frequency recognition sharpening drills every day! When the performer hears things better, generally speaking, they perform better.

Learned and/or Reinforced:
1. Good gain structure
2. Frequency recognition
3. Problem solving
4. Keeping my head while everyone else is losing theirs
5. As long as it's not the "suck" knob (thanks Gary Larson) - placebo adjustments can solve many problems.
6. Beware continual additive mixing, take something away to make room for something else or inversely make something seem louder.

Biggest advice I can offer OP: try to always have a Cue wedge (hopefully similar to all other wedges) - know what the performer is hearing in his mix so you can better make adjustments. In addition, have EQs inserted rather than in-line - that way you hear the curve in your cue wedge.

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by hobson

Had a long career mixing monitors - to be honest, all of my early years in sound involved mixing monitors from FOH - I really didn't want to be bothered... It was when I got hired at HOB NOLA in the early days that the house engineer Charles "Chopper" Brady introduced to mixing stage monitors - it's a real skill - direct interactivety with the artist(s) and frequency recognition sharpening drills every day! When the performer hears things better, generally speaking, they perform better.

Learned and/or Reinforced:
1. Good gain structure
2. Frequency recognition
3. Problem solving
4. Keeping my head while everyone else is losing theirs
5. As long as it's not the "suck" knob (thanks Gary Larson) - placebo adjustments can solve many problems.
6. Beware continual additive mixing, take something away to make room for something else or inversely make something seem louder.

Biggest advice I can offer OP: try to always have a Cue wedge (hopefully similar to all other wedges) - know what the performer is hearing in his mix so you can better make adjustments. In addition, have EQs inserted rather than in-line - that way you hear the curve in your cue wedge.

Very well put. Funny you set up at FOH. I used to have our monitor board next to stage and then i moved it to FOH . As for inserting the EQ's how can i do that for an Aux send? It goes from the Send to the EQ to the amp, In line. Cue wedge is a good idea too.

Good thread with good info

[bishopthomas]

What console are you using? It should have insert points for the aux sends. So go straight to the processors/amps from the aux sends then insert your EQ's from those points. Dedicated monitor consoles will have a cue out, but most low end consoles will not. If yours does not then look for a control room out or something to that effect.

[BFSound]

I run Vocals of FOH board and the rest of another.

FOH is a Crest CPM 32-4
Monitor board is Mackie CR1604

[BFSound]

Alright i found this Strictly monitor board for sale. Is a Yamaha CR1608.

16 channels and 8 monitor mixes. Each channel has an insert like you guys mentioned, as well as an insert for each aux send. Its like new and fully tested no crappy pots. You guys think this would be a good monitor board. For around $500.

Thanks

[hobson]

not sure specifically about the CR1608 - sure it's not a Mackie?

yep, inserts on the aux sends is sometimes specific to a monitor desk rather than FOH desk.. it differs..

when i was mixing monitors from FOH, i'd be using up aux mixes on the FOH desk to foldback to the stage - i still cringe.. gain structure really comes into focus when trying to juggle these two - not to mention the occasional added thrill of mixing on an old Tapco/Kelsey mixer where the fader increases the mic-pre gain (and aux values) as you fade up - now everyone's running the door...

I still feel the monitor engineer has one of the hardest gigs - FOH has to make it happen for the audience, but generally speaking your fairly isolated from that audience - in monitor world, if it sucks - they tell you very quickly! and to your face! fix it now!

that being said - if you get all the stage mixes were they need to be - then (like studio) it's in the artists hands - many gigs i've done, once they performers were happy - i never heard a peep out of them the entire gig.

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by hobson

not sure specifically about the CR1608 - sure it's not a Mackie?

Sorry MC1608 for the 80's i believe.