Jazz trio: Should I close mic or use a stereo pair?

[jnorman]

live jazz trio, piano, stand-up bass, drums, to be recorded in the pianist's LR. my interface can only handle 4 inputs, and i only have four mics (2-km184, 2-AT4051). should i put spots on piano and bass, and a pair as drum OHs, or should i just try to capture it with a single ORTF pair? or main pair, plus spots on bass and xxx? thanks.

[boojum]

Jim - My understanding of jazz is that spot mic'ing is the preferred method. Spot each instrument and run at least two on drums. You can do that with four mics. I understand that double mic'ing drums is best done from overhead.

OTOH I have gotten a pretty good pull using an MS setup. I prefer the ambient sound which one gets from a live performance. The spot mic'ed stuff has the sizzle alright, but not enough of the steak. So I would go with the ORTF and two spots on the drums. YMMV

[Uncle Russ]

A mic on each instrument; maybe two on drums as you planned. In jazz there generally is an expectation of individually miked instruments.

[Roland]

Four inputs isn't enough to do this job properly. Get some more inputs or just record it in stereo as an audience perspective demo.

Regards


Roland

[bass man]

You need at least 1 mic for the bass , 3 for the drums ( bd and stereo OHs ) and 2 for the piano IMO ,and this only if your mic technique is great and the room is OK at least .
You can use km 184 on the piano or drums OHs and AT pair also , try whats better . You can mic the BD with d 112 , EV , Shure beta or any other dyn. mic for the bass drum . Bass, it depends how loud are the cymbals , a good dynamic mic in the bridge can help if the drummer is loud ..

Stereo from the audience is the ticket if you cant have more than 4 ch but only if the room is great . 2 Km`s for the stereo picture of the whole band and 2 spot mics for the bass and piano ....

[tsvisser]

You might be able to get away with a stereo rig + 2 spots for safety in a nice acoustical environment, someone's living room is not likely that place, though (could be, but somehow doubt it).

[CoreyL]

I did a LR jazz recording not too long ago. Fun fun.

Is the piano an upright? If so, it'll be difficult to get a single mic close to the strings (for the sake of isolation, i.e. opening the top and putting the mic close to or in the piano), without emphasizing one section of the instrument's range, so if that's the case I'd save your extra mic for a stereo pair on that.

Otherwise, I'd do a mono OH and put the extra mic somewhere between the kick and the snare (6-10" off the floor.) But that's just me.

Good luck!

[studiovv]

Almost every time I use a track record the bass drum in jazz recordings that is, I end up not using it or very little. I notice that when I have a great OH it's plenty. (my 2 cents).

jf

[fallforward]

I think you could do a trio with 4 mics, you will just need time to experiment with mic placement. I would definitely spot mic unless you really like the sound of the room. Check out this thread for some ideas…

Jazz Trio Recording brainteaser......

[bass man]

Well the Rudi van Gelden`s recordings were done mostly with 4 mics .
One mic on the piano , one for the drums , one for the bass and one for the soloist - check it out ; )

[Corran]

If the room and players are good a single ORTF pair might cut it, or it might not.

I would first try an ORTF pair and see how it sounds, then add the other two mics as spot mics, one for the piano and bass and check, and then if all else fails, put two on OH, and one each on the bass and piano, and mess with reverb and stuff after the fact.

[fifthcircle]

What is the style of jazz being played?

You shouldn't have any problems getting a good sounding recording with 4 mics... Listen to some of the old recordings out there- you think they were all done with tons of mics?

Start with 3 mics and have them panned Left, Center and Right. (Piano on L, Drums on Right). It is an older style sound, but it works well.

To get the drums with one mic, place the mic a couple feet in front of the kit below the cymbals "looking" over the toms at snare. If you position it right, you won't need any other mics and you get a great, open sound and the sound gets put back on the performer, not the engineer.

Now, if you can stretch it to 6 channels, you can do well and get a bit more contemporary sound. Use 2 on the piano and 2 on the drums (micing the same way as described).

The minimalist setup, though, worked very well for Rudy van Gelder and Wally Heider (forgive me if I spelled names wrong).

--Ben

[ajfarber]

+1 on the Van Gelder method.

1 mic on the piano. RVG used a SDC in a hole in the piano with the lid open. It's not the most accurate piano sound, but it does sound good. Also, there is little leakage this way.

1 mic on bass and 2 on the drums. 1 oh positioned to pick up the entire drum set as one instrument. The 2nd mic should point somewhere near the snare & hh for extra hh "chip" and when brushes are used on the snare.

There will be enough bass drum leakage into the other mics.

[springer]

Having done a lot of trios recently I can say that you CAN get a decent result with just 4 tracks.
I used to limit the piano to one mic but recently have found that if it is the main focus giving it 2 just makes it all sound better. Unless your drummer is Jason Palmer, you will get lots of drum bleed in the other mics. I use a fig 8 on bass and make sure to put the null in line with the drums.
Most important thing for the overall recording is to make sure the musicians like the sound in the room (ask them if they can hear each other). I mean, you are not going to get Avatar Room A quality let's face it... so get them focussed on the performance and have fun.

[lakeshorephatty]

Originally Posted by jnorman

live jazz trio, piano, stand-up bass, drums, to be recorded in the pianist's LR. my interface can only handle 4 inputs, and i only have four mics (2-km184, 2-AT4051). should i put spots on piano and bass, and a pair as drum OHs, or should i just try to capture it with a single ORTF pair? or main pair, plus spots on bass and xxx? thanks.

What I would do in this case:

Nice mono overhead kept close on drums. Just above cymbal height. Make sure there is lots of body there... OR mic in front of the drums below cymbal level facing the drums to pick up a bit more kick. I'd try the 4041 for this because although i have no experience with it, I despise the 184's on cymbal sounds.

Spot mic on bass. If you can place the instruments properly you may not need this mic too close to the bass, maybe a foot away and find a good spot.

Spot mic on piano. Perhaps near the players ear, or if there is a way to shield the mic from the drums, then place it there, farthest away from the drums possible is likely best while still getting a closed sound

4th mic off in the room in a spot where there is a good balance of the sounds. It may even be cool to have this mic facing a wall depending on the delay you want in the room mic. I would try to make sure this room mic does not get a lot of direct cymbals because the high end of the room will sound harsh.

Panning is going to be fun. It would almost work with 4 mics to have bass coming up the center, piano hard one side and drums hard the other, room mic straight up the middle, but other positions are possible as well.

Russell