Limiting during remote recording?

[jnorman]

Do you use any limiting when you are doing remote recording of acoustic music? Is the limiter on-board your recording device, or are you using some type of outboard limiter? I assume limiting needs to happen prior to the signal hitting the converters, right?

for those of you who use a laptop, or computer-based system, and where there is no limiter included in your audio interface, how do you integrate a limiter into the signal chain?

thanks.

[Audiop]

So far I have never experienced problems from the AD noisefloor and therefore see no use for limiting. I record up to between -12dBFS and -3dBFS and add gain in the DAW if necessary.

And yes, limit before AD.


/Peter

[ghellquist]

Belts and suspenders. Yes, I use limiter. Set peaks to maximum -12dB with engaged limiter to catch if I´ve really botched things.

// Gunnar

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by jnorman

Do you use any limiting when you are doing remote recording of acoustic music? ...

If we can count compressing as well as limiting-- I don't leave home without it.

Generally it's the ACP 88 in line after the Sytek pres and before the HD24. I don't see how on Earth you could record a performance with any kind of usable levels and yet avoid clipping unless you had some kind of safety limiting in play. I've also had the experience that "pre-compressed" signals are SO much easier to work with during the editing and CD sequencing, you can work with much healthier levels-- rather than doing it all at once in post.

Here's what I'm talking about: a 60+ person chorus from the middle of last month. Like any other group, they go from whisper to screams, all the time. How you'd manage it without some kind of level control... I dunno.

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[d_fu]

I never limit. If necessary, I use declipping, but that hardly ever happens...

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Here's what I'm talking about: a 60+ person chorus from the middle of last month. Like any other group, they go from whisper to screams, all the time. How you'd manage it without some kind of level control... I dunno.

So far I have had no problem judging the size of the venue, size of the choir, dynamics of the instruments and distance from mic's to the performers and set gain before the concert starts and end up very close to where I want. Some times I have upped the gain 3dB to 6dB or so between first and second piece.

Last concert I recorded was setting the preamp gain once and leave it there. The peaks was -5dB or so.

I can understand using limiters/compressors by default back in the 16bit days but not now with 115-120dB DR from the AD.

I will come back slightly more humble and eat my hat the day I ruin a nice concert by clipping the AD.


/Peter

[JEGG]

It really depends on what you're recording. For acoustic sorts of ensembles in most genres:

With 24 bit available, there's just no reason to set levels that would compromise the recording. The dynamic range is huge, and the analogue portions of your chain may sound better when they breathe easier.

Having said that, try all the limiters you have to see what they do to the sound below and above the limit.

[chris319]

I record at 24 bits with 20 dB of headroom and keep an eye on the meter and a hand on the master gain control/fader. Peak limiting is done in post.

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I never limit. If necessary, I use declipping, but that hardly ever happens...

+1...I never use compression or limiting when recording.

[hughesmr]

I never use a limiter. Just play it safe with preamp settings (I shoot for peaks in the -12 to -6 range). I do my homework with the venue, gear and ensemble, so I've never had any issues with overs. If things are unpredictable, I just play it even safer.

[studer58]

..........if I might be able to swing the discussion a little, since it was originally posted to address the recording of acoustic music ? Can anyone suggest a transparent, musically benign and non-intrusive software limiter to be used in preparing the final 2 track master for CD burning...at home, since this is not intended to go for mass duplication at a pressing plant. I just want to be able to raise the average level a little in orchestral or chamber music recording without compromising the dynamic range of the recording, yet cut back some of the peaks which would otherwise set an unnecessarily low average level for the final master. Slamming the life out of it is NOT the name of the game here ! So to clarify... I'm seeking advice on the post production limiting side of things, not during the recording process (no, I don't use it there either...24 bits gives me enough headroom !)
Ray

[Audiop]

@studer58

Try Reacomp in Reaper. I have used in on one recording in post and it seems to be a very high quality plug. I could round of the tops without hearing any effect at all at low/medium passages.


/Peter

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by studer58

..........if I might be able to swing the discussion a little, since it was originally posted to address the recording of acoustic music ? Can anyone suggest a transparent, musically benign and non-intrusive software limiter to be used in preparing the final 2 track master for CD burning...at home, since this is not intended to go for mass duplication at a pressing plant. I just want to be able to raise the average level a little in orchestral or chamber music recording without compromising the dynamic range of the recording, yet cut back some of the peaks which would otherwise set an unnecessarily low average level for the final master. Slamming the life out of it is NOT the name of the game here ! So to clarify... I'm seeking advice on the post production limiting side of things, not during the recording process (no, I don't use it there either...24 bits gives me enough headroom !)
Ray

Regarding limiting in mastering (a little OT here)
I try in general not to limit. Or even leave headroom, when the music requires it (harpsichord sonatas :-)
For limiting the two or three outstanding peaks eating up your dynamic range, you could do it manually with gain automation or clip based gain, depending on your DAW. That way you have precise control over level and timing. It is also the cheapest solution.

For the more frequent limiting something with look ahead and adaptive release time is desirable. Some of the usual 3rd party suspects for more transparent limiting are - if your DAW doesn't have it on board - TC, iZotope Ozone, Flux, Sonnox...

[Corran]

No limiting here at the gig. At home, some [compression] is applied; settings vary widely on program material and the like.

On gigs with no soundcheck sometimes I have levels down -20 or -25, but I haven't had much problem adding digital gain in post. I certainly wouldn't want to err on the other side.

I have on occasion clipped the HD24XR inputs just barely but it was never noticeable come mix time. I think the clip indicator might flash a tad before it actually clips.

[Remoteness]

Nowadays, I rarely limit (or compress for that matter) before the digital recorders.
When applicable, I do all my signal processing after the recorders, especially during a live show or broadcast where I must also provide a stereo mix.

In the analog recorder days, I would use every bell and whistle I can find to get my sound to tape. It was what we had to do to capture the sound we liked.

Today, I process my tracks in post production; that keeps all my options open.



Side Note:
The last time I recorded anyone live using a 2" analog machine was in 2001.
Man, that was a seriously long time ago and I kind of miss it...




Or, not.

[Corran]

Side note to your side note: I recorded a funk trio two nights ago live to an Otari 1/4" just for fun. Boy it's a pain! But that sound...

[fifthcircle]

I will occasionally limit to "tape" on a jazz or rock gig, but I'm very careful as to how I do it. I'll also do it on larger shows where there is enough of a lack of control that I'm concerned about clipping.

This spring, did a recording with 48 channels of high school girls doing a broadway style show. I had a flypack of ATI 8MX2 pres going to Pro Tools HD. The limiters on each channel of the 8MX2 saved my butt on numerous occasions. High School kids don't have the vocal control that you need for a good recording situation. Combine that with Countryman E6 mics right by their mouths and the dynamic range was massive. Lastly, for flavor, add in the I'm happy, high school shreik at the end of the show. Whee!!!

In the end, though, I try to avoid it whenever possible as I don't want to do something in tracking that messes me up in the mix.

--Ben

[henryrobinett]

Sometimes I strap a limiter on those tracks I think might go more dynamic than I had planned. But for me it's a real safety measure, because many times I'm playing and can't man the "board." But I use the ULN-8, so it really is a safety. I have the virgin tracks, sans limiter, still getting recorded.

[Ozpeter]

Can anyone suggest a transparent, musically benign and non-intrusive software limiter to be used in preparing the final 2 track master for CD burning.

How to choose a software limiter -

In my view a limiter should do absolutely nothing, apart from a simple amplify operation if desired, other than at the precise points where it's limiting.

Therefore, if you invert a limited version of the material with a non-limited version (but with the same amplification processing) you should hear nothing except very briefly when the peak are actually being limited.

Listening to the inversion of the peaks tells you a lot about the character of the limiter. Personally I like to hear just very fast "spitches" of sound at the limit points, almost clicks, certainly no identifiable musical content. What I would call a "bad" limiter would be one that can't produce silence at all during inversion, or which has such a slow release that you hear musical content for a second or two at the limit point.

Personally I keep coming back to the ultra-simple Classic Master Limiter - one knob and a good gain reduction display.

[Tommy-boy]

I'm surprised more people don't use limiting as a safety net. I use it, but almost never run the volumes to the point where the limiter kicks in. I estimate headroom in advance like everybody else, but I always use a limiter just in case. For the stuff I record live (which isn't a ton), there's no way to go back and capture the moment. Once it's lost, it's lost.

-Tom

[henryrobinett]

I'm with you Tom.It doesn't make any sense to not have a safety just in case.

[Petrus]

Main rig: aiming for -6 dBFS peaks, either with test run (file analyzed with Audition) or experience/comparasons with similar gigs. I have also tested the sensitivities of all of my mics and preamps and have a table written on the inside cover of my audio notebook.

Safety: Backup system with levels 6 dB lower.

No need for limiters.

[mixedupsteve]

For plain limiting in post I use TLS Pocket Limiter:
www.tinbrooketales.com

With the knee set to 0 or very low it's really just there to catch the overs. It's a freebe too!
Windows VST only I think.

[fifthcircle]

I try to avoid limiting and I will rarely use it as a safety net. When I do, it is nice to have, but the whole point of a gain structure is not *not* have to use it. With 24 bit technologies that we have today, there is no reason to come anywhere near clipping when recording. Also, keep in mind how things sum- if you are clipping your stereo bus, you're still clipping. Count on summing to add a lot of level- therefore, keep your input levels even lower.

As I said eariler, once and a very great while I'll do a bit of limiting to achieve a specific sound. The only other time I'll limit is when the dynamic range of the source is completely uncontrolled. This was the case with my gig of high school girls. In that case, I was very happy to have the 8MX2's limiters. Only used them on the headset mics, though- none on the choir mics or the band mics.

--Ben

[henryrobinett]

I do a lot of live gigs. Any number of things can occur. The range, even after careful testing/sound checks, always exceeds, sometimes dramatically, the levels at first assumed. The drummer can go absolutely wild at some point. A guitar amp glitch or broad level change.

-6db peaks is not enough safe range for me. I can put a limiter on every track and not use it, and almost never do. But it HAS saved my butt more than once.

Plus as I said, when I have a guitar in my hands, on stage, having limiters backstage, lets me breath a little easier!

[joelpatterson]

So, there must be one of several things happening.

All you guys who preserve the real-world 130 dB range of a concert at the moment of recording are either processing it later on to bring it into "listenable CD range" which is say roughly 30 dB down for the quiet parts up to the limit, zero, for the loudest...

Or you actually are delivering CDs where some of the program hovers down below 30, 40, 50 dB. Which I would find incredible to try to believe.

Or... is there some third way?

[Ozpeter]

Do you use any limiting when you are doing remote recording of acoustic music?

All you guys who preserve the real-world 130 dB range of a concert at the moment of recording are either processing it later on to bring it into "listenable CD range" which is say roughly 30 dB down for the quiet parts up to the limit, zero, for the loudest...

Or you actually are delivering CDs where some of the program hovers down below 30, 40, 50 dB. Which I would find incredible to try to believe.

Or... is there some third way?

Acoustic music with 130dB range? I've never encountered anything like that. Even in a good hall, if a symphony orchestra peaks to 0dB on the meters then I'd expect hall 'silence' to be around -60dB on the meters.

[henryrobinett]

Well you do know that most jazz is acoustic and sometimes acoustic jazz can get very loud. 130db? Yeah, I don't know about that.

[fifthcircle]

Just delivered a CD to a client today of a live show. Had a dynamic range of roughly 65 dB- and this was after manipulating levels in post. Recorded completely clean.

Show went from Morton Feldman to Phillip Glass. 'nuff said.

--Ben

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

So, there must be one of several things happening.

All you guys who preserve the real-world 130 dB range of a concert at the moment of recording are either processing it later on to bring it into "listenable CD range" which is say roughly 30 dB down for the quiet parts up to the limit, zero, for the loudest...

Or you actually are delivering CDs where some of the program hovers down below 30, 40, 50 dB. Which I would find incredible to try to believe.

Or... is there some third way?

Joel, as mentioned you will never see a 130dB DR in a hall, possibly in a good studio miking at an inch or two.

What I think many of us do is set gain so the peaks end up at -12dBFS or -6dBFS or so and then add some gain in post to get the level up. I shoot for peaks at -1dBFS to -3dBFS on the CD.


/Peter