One very interesting day for me is coming

[GES]

hello,
One very interesting day for me is coming.
I will have my "konzertexam" a concert for completing my musical studies in Germany.
I play classical guitar.

The concert will be in a very very nice sounding hall, and I will play a concert for guitar and orchestra. The orchestra will play other pieces before that one.

The thing I would like to study in a very near future is recording. I started many years ago with a minidisc, recording more and more....Now I have more decent equipment, that I have aquired with a lot of effort over the years.

Last week I constructed one big stereo bar (pictures attached) that costed me 25 euro total. When I saw the stereo bars you can buy in Switzerland, i was very angry, they cost around 160 euro...!

Anyway, I would like to share with you this excitement and happyness about recording and playing at the same time. I know it is not the optimal thing to do, but I will only hit "record" after putting all the mics and positioning everything and levels, and then only concentrate in the piece.

The orquestra will have the following:

1 oboe, 1 fagot,1 clarinet,1 horn,1 trombone, and strings: 6 first violins, 5 seconds, 4 violas, 4 celli, and 2 basses.

I will record it with the following equipment.
neuman km 184 (2)
se electronics 4400a (2)
dav preamp / 2 channels
fireface 400 / 2 channels
to a computer, at maybe 88.2 / 24 bits...

So, the two questions I would like to ask you are:
1.-how to place the four microphones, I planned to put in the stereo bar the se4400a (omni) in A/B at around 1 meter appart (to the DAV), and in the middle, one of the neumanns (cardioid) pointing to the wind section.

And the other neumann, as spot for the soloist guitar.

The km184 to the preamps in the fireface.

I wanted to try a Decca technique, but I don't have more omnis. And I would like to disturb as little as possible the director and/or visual field.
I will put the stereo bar then behind the director, as high as possible trying to capture the whole range of the chamberorchestra.

What do you think?

And the other question is:

It is my first recording of an orchestra, and I will not have the chance to play with the levels and be aware of everything...so, according to your experiences, aproximately how many dB you left on the AB microphones? The DAV preamp goes till 59. Last time I recorded a choral/instrumental baroque ensemble i used around 35-38...but an orchestra sound much louder...I think...if you are interested in hearing a sample of the se4400a in omni trhroug the DAV BG1 please visit:

Musica Sacra


Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts and experience...
Pablo

Pablo Garibay

[Remoteness]

No one seemed to chime in on this one.
Did the event happen yet?
If so, how did it come out?

[pkautzsch]

I would use the KM184s for the main pair, probably in ORTF as you say you don't have a chance to listen. Remember that the SEs are dual-diaphragm and therefore not pressure omnis, but two cardioids back to back (or am I mis-informed? The diagrams on their website look, for the omni setting, quite like a pressure transducer pattern...).
SEs would then be spots - definitely for soloist, but the other one...I'd probably use it as double bass spot, and get the balance between strings and winds by pointing the 184 pair more towards winds (or, unlikely, more towards strings).

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

No one seemed to chime in on this one.
Did the event happen yet?
If so, how did it come out?

Two on the woodwind, two as an AB pair, sounds like one mic amp short of a spot mic, unless there is other kit he's not telling us about!

Roland

[guosh]

this one really slipped under the radar. totally didn't see this post.

Originally Posted by Roland

Two on the woodwind, two as an AB pair, sounds like one mic amp short of a spot mic, unless there is other kit he's not telling us about!

i think he's going with the AB pair with just one 184 on the woodwinds, while the other 184 will be on his solo guitar

i think so at least! i've tried it once, using a single nt5 as a woodwind spot and it didn't turn out too well - so i'm probably going to go with pkautzsch on this. 184s in ortf, se omnis as spots

or conversely, since its quite a small group, why not have the 184s in ortf as your main mics and use the se omnis to add width and room sound? its a chamber group so it shouldn't be too loud, and it should balance itself

then again i'm not really sure the guitar would be loud enough or forward enough to be heard as a solo instrument in these circumstances. i've done a couple of recordings with a flute or trombone soloist in front of a wind ensemble with just a main pair and the balance has turned out fine. YMMV though

if it sounds balanced in the hall, it ought to be fine in the recording with a little manipulation of the height of the main pair to get the desired balance. however, since pablo mentioned he's not able to really fine-tune the levels, it might be safer then to go with the ortf pair at a good height with spots

the orchestra shouldn't be too loud, but at 24/88.2 you should still leave considerable headroom. there's no harm in playing safe, you can always boost the levels later in your daw

hope this doesn't come too late!

[klaukholm]

Which piece is it you are playing?
Is it the villa lobos? I know I just did a guitar concerto with that instrumentation a few years back with Söllcher, and I want to think it was the Lobos.
I would consider a spot on the guitar as well as guitar can get hopelessly lost, particularly in a student ensemble.

[GES]

Thanks for all the advices.
I will consider all these options, techniques and advices. The concert is on thursday, and the piece is Villalobos. One of my favourites concertos besides Ponce, Tedesco and Joaquín Rodrigo's Aranjuez...

We had the first rehearsal on saturday. The wind section is really good!!! Is hard to find a good one sometimes, the horn player is just incredible, and also the oboe and clarinet...I hope with the two other rehearsals the strings will take more confidence. The real problem is that the concert is in another place...I just would like to be able to make the microphone adjustements with more calm...

I will keep informed of how it goes....
Maybe, if there is chance I will record a bit of the rehearsal on wednesday...only to feel the things, even if it will be in another place...
bye
Pablo

[GES]

I read all the advices and thought of this situation. Th best solution will be to use one extra equipment, that will help both the performance and the recording (I hope!)
You are right, It is better to cover the best possible way the wind section and the main pair and the guitar....everything! ;-) I will use the following setup:


-Se4400a through the DAVBG1 in Omni for the main pair, aproximately 80 cm appart. I decided for this because I like them in this time ;-)
-neumans 184 in XY to the FF400 amplifiers for the winds, trying to center the players for taking the best image possible.
That's is for the microphones and preamps, so, the remain thing is the guitar.

-For the guitar, I decided to use a great amplifier that I allways play with, that use a little attacheable microphone in the hole of the guitar, and the good thing is that the guitar sounds natural, at least if you put not an exagerated gain in it. So, I changed with the amplifier builder the internal preamp of this little box in order to be able to take a line out (XLR to Jack) so this line-out i will take it to another line-in of the FF400 and just put a tiny touch in the final mix if neccesary. I am betting to only use the 2 AB omni-mains and 2 XY-winds and trust in the speaker to have enough guitar there, but if not, I can use a tiny of the little atacheable microphone.

I decided this because I want to take care of the wind section, that sounds really fantastic, and to experiment with this little speaker/attacheable microphone for the first time.

I will record it in 24/88.2 and try to adjust gains and be safe there...there are some really good fortisimos there...I will have around one our for the last rehearsal that is there, and good that I can go in the hall 7 hours before the concert already, so tomorrow I will have a very good day, hopefully I will install everything calmed an fast and with no obstacles, to be able to have at least 4 hours to concentrate...

The bottom line is: next time, I call an ingeneer, but well it has been fun, and maybe is the only time i can do this! play with orchestra and record...so...
I will keep you informed, and whenever I have some sample I will post some of the different mics and guitar...

Wish me luck!
regards,
Pablo Garibay

p.s. thanks remoteness, roland, pkautzsch, guosh, klaukholm, for your kind advices.

[pkautzsch]

Hey Pablo,

where in Germany are you located?

[GES]

I am located in Bremen, but my examination was in Weimar....you??
It happened alrady, I am very very happy. I played, and recorded...but i am exausted...
I will post some samples in a week or so.

konzertexam war bestanden!
(I passed the examination!)

[guosh]

congrats pablo!

[GES]

Hello,

Thanks guosh!

Here are 5 files (this post and the next two) of one excerpt of the villalobos concerto. 2d movement.
I recorded each microphone separetly in mono to be able to pan everything and adjust afterwards, I downloades from 88.2 to 48 and then to mp3 to be able to put them here.
Everything in centered, but Main A (left) shlould be panned to the left, Main B (right) to the right ans so on. The levels are as recorded, no manipulation or effect in any of them.

These are the microphones (looking from the audience to the stage)

Main A (left)
Main B (right)
Winds Left
Winds Right
Guitar Speaker

The Guitar speaker is a little bit early as well, because it was directly in the hole of the guitar.

If someone want to try a mix and teach the interested people how to do it, would be wonderful. Thanks in advance...now, practice, I play tonight again...i need vacations!!!
take care,
Pablo

[GES]

here the winds

[GES]

guitar speaker


Thanks for the support and for your time!
Pablo

[Roland]

This is for me a very interesting post and a particularly good example of the dangers of trying to do a job with limited knowledge and internet forum advice. Whilst I think the job as a demo of the playing is fine, having listened to the files IMHO the main pair could have been better placed, and I personally would have (as pkautzsch mentioned) used the KM84's as the mains. The wind spots have recorded the best, but really aren't needed as the woodwind balance in the mains seems adequate. What doesn't work is the guitar, the acoustic amp has made the sound too "boomy" in the room and the DI/mic on the cab/guitar sounds pretty awful.

In my view working acoustically with the guitar, and working to get the ensemble to play sympathetically (with a spot on the guitar for the recording) would have been much more beneficial from a recording point of view. If you really must amplify the guitar for a performance like this, it needs to be much more subtle, to all intents and purposes invisible from an audience perspective.

I apologize to Pablo in advance if my words above come over as harsh, but for little additional effort, with the gear you had, you could have achieved (IMHO) a better result. I remember when I started recording getting "chewed" off over silly, stupid things I did, but they ultimately helped me to learn more.

Regards


Roland

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by GES

I am located in Bremen, but my examination was in Weimar....you??
It happened alrady, I am very very happy. I played, and recorded...but i am exausted...
I will post some samples in a week or so.

konzertexam war bestanden!
(I passed the examination!)

Sorry for the late reply - Swine Flu got me and then I apparently missed your thread.
Will listen to the clips next week.
I'm based in Munich, but have been recording all around Germany.

[GES]

Helo Roland and pkautzsch,

Roland, thnaks for your observations, I know the recording went not good.
I simply tried to do everything on that time, from orginizing the orchestra one month before, to play this very hard piece, to record...but recording was too hard to do it properly. I gave almost everything in orginizing and of course playing (the most important part to me) Next time, as I said, I will hire a real engineer to do the recording and leave that out of my mind.

But also, I think there is a chance to do a very good live recording demo of the performance, and keep learning about recording. That is essential to me, try, try, learn and not only get advice from experienced people like you, but also study the audio engineering career. So in the future I can do recordings...but not anymore while playing :-)

For the placement, I did't have the chance to move the microphones once they were placed for the prior works, chamber pieces and different orchestrations. I think too, like pkautzsch said, it would have been better other arrangement.

I learned a lot of this experience, and like you mentioned, could have been much better...
Thanks for your advices...

If still someone wants to do the best possible thing to do with this -not good- recording, I would be thankful to hear ways to do it.
bye,
pablo

p.s. pkautzsch, i hope you are feeling better because of the flu.