limitations in mic placement? what would you do?

[guosh]

picture this:
classical orchestral setup in a great hall, with great players. new exciting premieres. great equipment available

problem?
1) you can't hang your mics or raise them too high because there's a projection show
2) you can't place your mics off stage
3) you can't put a stand behind the conductor because there's a piano behind him

so... where can you place them?

i tried to do the best i could for the rehearsal, with a dpa 5.1 surround in the middle of the orchestra, 2 dpa 4006s on individual stands in front of the conductor's stand along with a couple of spot mics and 4015 flanks on the 1st circle balcony facing down.

reaction from a composer who came to have a listen: 'why does it sound so bad? it sounds too close. almost like mono'

i nearly got brutally honest with him, but in the end i just swallowed my pride, shrugged and said i'll try to do something... probably this? ->

anyone have any ideas? or if not, any similar experiences with these sorts of restrictions along expectations of a good sound?

[d_fu]

Do they want this to be recorded well?
Then let them help you find out how a decent setup can be made possible. If not - bye bye...

[fifthcircle]

Given the situation, sounds like it will have to be close.

I'd probably go with all mics on stands. A pair on either side of the conductor and a wide/flank pair at about the 2nd-3rd stand of strings. I'd probably go with all omnis for those, it will make the close position less obvious. I'd place them as high as I can get away with- most likely with the back of the mic to the bottom of the screen. Pan your mains and wides hard right and left and you'll have a pretty wide image. You may find out that depending on the size of the conductor's stand that the main pair needs to be panned in a touch to compensate (although I hate doing this).

For the orchestra to get around, I would be surprised if the bottom of the screen was lower than about 8-9 feet high. That gives you a decent amount of space between the mic head and the group. It is still a bit low, but workable.

Mic the rest of the orchestra the way you normally would (ie woodwind spots, etc...) and you should be in decent shape. You may need to use some added reverb, but that isn't the end of the world.

This situation isn't that unusual and you just need to work with it. Also, you just need to be able to deal with a closer sound than is ideal.

--Ben

[guosh]

thanks for your thoughts ben, you're a lifesaver! i've got the AB pair up already, but its probably only about 6 feet high because 'the audience in the first row will not be able to see the screen'; and its already within the semicircle of strings. i'll try putting the flanks in tomorrow and see if they'll allow it, but i guess adding reverb is unavoidable. a pity though, since the hall is quite fantastic

will have to check if there's another pair of 4006s around, otherwise i'll have to go with the 4090s as flanks....

its a 2 day concert, so i'll have the opportunity to try just about anything for the 2nd concert. its a really nice hall imo, i'll snap some pics tomorrow

Originally Posted by d_fu

Do they want this to be recorded well?
Then let them help you find out how a decent setup can be made possible. If not - bye bye...

my guess is that they want it to sound perfect while looking perfect as well. sometimes people think we have transparent, floating schoeps that can connect to our preamps through bluetooth...

[fifthcircle]

Can you get a hold of some of the DPA or Schoeps compact mics? How about 4061s?

At a certain point, you need to have the old "you can have a recording that looks good or sounds good" discussion. If they want looks, then they don't get sound. You can't beat physics unfortunately.

If you want the hall sound. Why don't you either drop a hall pair or have a rear facing pair that aims into the non-audience areas of the hall? Mix that in as your reverb...

--Ben

[avebr]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

At a certain point, you need to have the old "you can have a recording that looks good or sounds good" discussion. If they want looks, then they don't get sound. You can't beat physics unfortunately.

This is endless...

We should put this text in a fine print in all contracts, e-mails, etc...



all the best,
ave.

[chris319]

Can you hang mics from overhead in such a way that they don't encroach on the projector beam?

[guosh]

i had a pair of 4015s on the balcony of the 1st circle for some hall sound, put my flanks back in and it sort of worked. only problem was that the front row was under-represented in the recordings, but that really couldn't be helped with the placement

we're thinking of getting the compact mics actually, but still trying to figure out how we'll use them effectively in these sort of situations

hanging the mics overhead really isn't possible in this hall.. way too high! usually we'd hang the mics from the circle seats, but in this case it'd get in the way of the projection

i've uploaded a couple of pics - its really quite a nice hall. also, just for fun, can you identify the gear?

[Don S]

I can only make out the 2 Grace pres. 801R's? What else is in there?

[d_fu]

Consider a nylon rope tied to the balconies... Doesn't look too high. You will need long mic cables, though.... Have a look at the flying mics thread for ideas...

[sonare]

Ben suggested DPA4060/4061. These are half the size of your little fingertip. If you were to hang them (with the thin microdot extensions) in A-B configuration and not tell anyone no one would EVER notice.

Having a pair "just in case" is a good investment-- under $1000 for a pair of great-sounding omnis. I use mine quite often as they are quite versatile.

Rich

[fifthcircle]

Rich is absolutely right. The 4061 is a tiny microphone (I'd describe it as slightly larger than a match stick head).

You do indeed have a beautiful hall and this is absolutely a case of management having to make a choice about how important the recording is. You have tons of space for mics and to completely mess up the recording because of the folks that are sitting in the first row seems a bit short-sighted. You can remind them that every row back allows for a slightly higher mic positioning.

Also, your orchestra is quite a ways from the lip of the stage. If your mics are up against the orchestra, then you get even more height available to you.

Another idea:

Your "main pair" is essentiall the Left and Right sides of a tree (without the center mic). What if you moved your omnidirectional flanks inside the orchestra. You'd be able to place them higher. By inside, I mean between the Cello/Viola and Vln 1/Vln 2 sections. You'll have an aisle there anyways. While not ideal placement, you'll still get good section pickup and it may end up giving you some added height that you need.

I've done rigs like Daniel mentioned and they have worked well, too... You could place the mics in that case over the conductor's head and you don't need to worry about stands getting in the way (and you get a better mic position). For that matter, you could also rig your flanks to that line as well.

I think that given the situation, you have a number of options available to you. None are perfect, but you should be able to get something usable. To get better will require the bosses to make a choice of looks or sound.

--Ben

[guosh]

thanks for the heads-up on the dpa 4061s. i'm sure i saw a thread about it on GS some time back. i'll have to go read it tomorrow before the show. just took a look on the dpa website and wow its small! i'll have to read the flying mics thread though - usually what we'd do is to have 2 people on the balcony throw mic cables down, tie it to a stereo bar and hoist it up with an end result similar to what daniel has drawn

i'll try to see if anyone has a pair of 4061s i can rent tomorrow... or if that fails, just see how thin a line i can hang without it being seen, while providing enough support for the 4061s. when we hang mic cables its always leaves a shadow thats way too obvious

ben, many thanks for your advice! placing the flanks helped a lot in capturing the orchestra, as i'm able to place these really high thanks to the fact that they're on the side. as for the centre, i'm experimenting with the LS and RS channels of the dpa 5.1 to see if i can somehow pan it to sound realistic

unfortunately i can't place the mics at the stage lip. forgot to mention that they'll be wheeling in the piano for a solo item so there's no space for my mics. also, i can't raise them sufficiently in the aisle either. that was the first plan actually, but since it wasn't high enough, it effectively became a harp/piano spot mic so i brought it out to the flanks in the end

looks like this is as good as it gets for this concert, thankfully we managed to negotiate and label it as an archival rather than pro recording session. looks like we'll need to have the typical 'great sound or great looks' chat.... though hopefully with the addition of miniature mics it'll help in the future


btw, don, sharp eyes its a pair of grace 802s, an apogee rosetta 16 and ad16, and a focusrite octopre at the bottom. (and no i didn't mean to take the picture in the dark. i think they were messing with me backstage, turning the lights on and off. just so happens that one picture was taken when they suddenly blacked out the area)

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by sonare

If you were to hang them (with the thin microdot extensions) in A-B configuration and not tell anyone no one would EVER notice.

I second that. If (almost) invisibility is important, this can be a life saver. They are great for sound for picture e.g.
FYI, the microdot extension cable info can be found here: DAO6020
It's just a pity that the microdot connectors are in gold only and not available in black. A bit of black gaffer tape will do the job though.

[chris319]

It probably cost millions to build that hall ... a huge, expansive space ... perfect acoustics ... state-of-the-art lighting ... yet with all of those deluxe amenities, when they want to make a simple audio recording the poor sound guy has no place to hang mics! Are mics generally an afterthought when designing and building these types of halls? Are there any halls with some kind of inbuilt provision for mic placement so people don't have to string nylon ropes across the stage?

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by chris319

Are there any halls with some kind of inbuilt provision for mic placement so people don't have to string nylon ropes across the stage?

There are, at least here in Europe. But very often those setups are owned by the national or regional radio station. It's not always easy to get permission for third parties to use them. If you suspend a microphone using a single cable from the ceiling it will point vertically downward, and probably not exactly where you want it. When you want to point the mic to a specific direction you'll need to pull some extra wires which can be time consuming (and there's even the risk that musicians will change position after you have carefully set up the mics).

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by sonare

Ben suggested DPA4060/4061. These are half the size of your little fingertip.

Rich, IME these mics are so light that the cable they are hanging on remains curled, which doesn't look good.
Do you use some extra weight to pull the cables straight ? I've tried fishing lead but that wasn't ideal.

[sonare]

I use the metal collars intended to fit on drill bits to limit hole depth. Since the connector is smaller diameter than the head I slip it over the connector end and let it slide down to the mic. Ironically it is considerably larger than the mic but still cannot be seen more that a few feet away. There is a pair using these in my church most folks have never noticed.

You could also experiment with a small piece of sheet metal folded over the cable at the mic-- anything to provide a little weight.

Rich

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Consider a nylon rope tied to the balconies... Doesn't look too high. You will need long mic cables, though.... Have a look at the flying mics thread for ideas...

Depending on where the projection comes from, the flying rig itself may not be visible, but its shadow on the screen will be. The whole problem, if I understand correctly, comes from the mics being in the way of picture.

When there are enough channels, it's not too difficult to mike everything independently. Woodwinds can nicely be miked between the music stands, brass...well, probably enough bleed on the wind mics anyway, but can also be miked quite low - basses and celli can be done nicely with BLMs in front, piano is good enough when miked 5ft high if picture is a problem, only REAL problems being violins and violas. These I've found to sound surprisingly natural when the mic is in line with the necks - so, again not really high. One might even try shotguns for this, being able to go a bit farther away than one normally would expect.
This is NOT what I recommend as the best solution for recording orchestras. But it's a good compromise when one needs to keep the mics low.