Advice Needed on micing drums live via a submix

[dapdrums]

I'm hoping members could help me find an approach/solution to my live drum micing senario.

I'm the drummer.

My band does our own sound.

I submix my drums and send an OUT to the main (small) PA board.
I do normal micing : Kick (D112) Snare/Toms (SM 57). The only EQ is what in on my 12 channel mackie board.
I never get to hear the FOH, so I'm at the mercy of the guitarist who does the tweaking.
I heard my kit the other day when a good drummer sat in and was disappointed. It is a nice DW kit, tuned well; yet the PA made the kit sound loud and crappy. Years ago when we sub-contracted out sound, the kit sounded amazing on a nightly basis.

Any suggestions on what gear I should use and the set up to go after for a quality portable sound? Do I need a compressor for my kick, or any extra EQs? I want to minimize my setup, but if a 2 space rack with eq and compressor will improve my sound, I'll lug it. I am using a good Mackie VLZ board. I guess I'm looking a "keep it simple" approach, and any advice is way appreciated.

thank you. Please reply to dave@drumhq.com.

[chrisso]

Well I find 57's tend to make toms sound a bit harsh.
But how do you know the 'good drummer' didn't play your kit in such a way as it sounded loud and crappy? Everyone plays differently.
Also, the room would have had a big effect on the sound of the drums through the PA.
It seems to me you should be able to achieve a good sound with a well played, well tuned kit, even with minimal mics and minimal eq.
Maybe it was the room?

(I don't think compression is the answer)

[ears2thesky]

I think you answered your own question. There is no substitute for a sound guy out front--period. I have yet to see bands get consistently good sound mixing from the stage.
I think more bands ought to invest in their stage monitor system rather than a PA. One of the biggest problems bands have (even with a someone at FOH) is stage sound. It's also more important in rehearsal. I see many bands try to rehearse with a PA and insufficient monitoring. A PA is not necessary but monitors are. Lots of nightclubs have decent PA systems and really crappy stage monitor systems, so bringing in your own monitor shot can make a huge difference. Having your own mics and stage snakes helps to expedite set changes as well as giving a consistent tone every night.
Still without a person out front it's always going to be a crap shoot.
I worked a Boston concert a few years ago and was amazed to find out that Tom Scholtz submixed everything from the stage and only sent a couple of channels of audio to the FOH guy. It sound was terrible. The relative balance of the instruments was awful, and worst of all: the drums sounded really bad. I wondered what the FOH guy thought about every night powerless to fix the mix. I hope he got paid well.

[dapdrums]

Thanks for the initial replies. Lets just assume that the guy who sat in was a decent drummer who played a basic rock beat/fills generally well. I've heard him play a club where there was a full P.A. with fOH sound guy and he sounded fine. Second, lets assume that we can't afford a sound guy on certain nights when money is tight.

I just looking for good suggestions as to how to best mix my drums, and what gear you would use (minimal, of course) to get a decent sound. You can refer to my first post in this thread for more detail.

[7rojo7]

Set up your drum sound in a rehearsal studio with good monitors, each instrument how you want it> Send to the FOH kik, sn from the direct outs (if you use top and bottom mic, then sn mix), mix the toms and (if you use them for small gigs) OH (4 or 5 busses and a couple of direct outs) Don't ever change this.
On small systems, I use the system itself as a compressor (kind of, actually it's not similar at all but you have lots of volume if you want) The FOH guy can refine your sound for FOH. Your basic levels shouldn't change much, every system needs a little tuning. Teach another band member to play a fast beat and a slow beat and how to hit the toms to check it out yourself.
This all might save you some time in soundcheck, might not. I've had to do this to the point where I actually cover the board with tape for the channels the guy is not supposed to touch (you can run into some real winners, nephews and such) Any competent engineer should be able to adapt your EQ to his system and maybe not have to touch it at all.
I find the Mackie EQ lacking for drums, it misses the frequencies you need to control the kick and toms (140-600 range), maybe you need to patch in a kik eq and a tom eq over its buss

Earthworks kikpad?