High end on brass ensemble

[Dange]

Hi,

I have been recording brass bands (the traditional British type of ensemble) in church halls/school halls etc. The mainstay of my setup is a Royer SF-12 stereo microphone with a DACS MicAmp preamp. The Royer has been giving good results, especially with bass/low frequencies. But it seems to be lacking on the higher frequencies, getting that real zing on the top end.

I wondered if anyone could suggest some pointers for recording?

Could it just be mic placement?
Or maybe the room?

I've thought about introducing another pair stereo of mics (I use spot mics as it is, to pick out soloists, percussion etc.) to try and capture that high end.

This causes problems as I think:
1. Do I really need another pair?
2. Could they too be in XY configuration? or would this cause mix down problems, i.e. with phase cancellation
3. How about some spaced omnis instead of XY? I have used a spaced pair set far back for some ambience pick up, but thinking bring them in a lot closer.
4. If I go for another pair of mics to work along side the Royer what do I choose? I'd be looking to hire some before committing to buying, this might restrict what I can try out though, a lot of places don't seem to have matched pairs for hire either.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Cheers

Dan

[Elk]

Dan,

I know exactly what you are seeking. Unfortunately I have the same problem. I also record brass, from quintets to large ensembles, and find balancing warmth with bite difficult.

Ribbons are wonderful. They capture the timbre and richness without sounding shrill. I find that an ORTF pair placed just behind the conductor, ~12' high, pointed about 3/4 of the way back provides a good basic sound with good power. However, I also find that the higher harmonics are inadequately captured. Ribbons can handle a good amount of EQ, and this can help, but doesn't really do it.

I am afraid that to get the sound we really want, we need to spot mic each section (or each instrument in a smaller ensemble) and supplement this with a main pair, such as spaced omnis.

The new Canadian Brass recording, Echo - Glory Of Gabrieli, has great sound. It was recorded with a vintage ribbon on each instrument (~2' away from the bell, perhaps 40 degrees from direct sound (with mics pointed at the back of the french horn bells)) and with a main spaced pair in the middle of the wide-spaced ensemble. I strongly suspect that the recordings of the Black Dyke Band and others are made similarly.

It may be worth posting a small snippet of a recording you like so that others understand both the sound your are seeking and the type of ensemble. This is a genre unfamiliar to most Americans, and you may generate some new fans.

As an aside, as a trumpet player, I have great respect for British brass bands - incredible musicianship, great literature, wonderful tradition.

I hope others can provide more help; I'll learn too.

Ehrich

[Dange]

Hi Ehrich,

I'm glad I'm not alone in the problem!

For a quick example of the genre, The Black Dyke Band are here - Black Dyke Band on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

The two tracks, 'Deep Harmony' and 'Queensbury' contrast and show the massive dynamic range these bands can have. The 'Queensbury' recording sounds brilliant and I am just listening on laptop speakers at the moment...


Will seek out other recordings

Any suggestions for spot mics to try, ribbons, condensers?

[markr041]

I listened to this recording on good Sennheiser headphones and it seemd to me to be precisely lacking in sparkling highs (maybe becasue of the compression). I also thought the recording was too dry. I did like the dynamic range and stereo spread. And, I like this type of material.

Is there a better example to listen to, or am I missing something?

[Dange]

The Black Dyke Band is an example of the genre, not really of the recording problem in hand.
I've just listened to it on my Sennheiser HD280 headphones and I agree it doesn't sound brilliant. More likely though this down to the compression/quality of recording on the hosting site

[markr041]

I do not believe that to get crisp sound one needs close micing (there may be other reasons to do it). This recording seems to me to have all the crispness and bite of brass, as well as some room sound (perhaps a tad too much room). Was recorded ORTF, and should be played loud.

Is this high-end brass?

[Elk]

Yes, Countrapunctus Icks. A standard in quintet literature.

Excellent amateur group. Impressive.

While a very nice recording, it illustrates my frustration. The trumpets sound great (they are the closest to the mics in the typical quintet configuration), while the lower brass recede in both sound and are under-balanced. The horn and tuba are particularly dark. The overall impression is a trumpet duet with accompaniment. (Of course, a good deal of the repertoire is indeed exactly this.)

I think what happens is that our ears compensate while we are listening, while the mics pick up what is actually there.

Can you tells us more about both the recording and the group? Both are great examples.

[Dange]

Originally Posted by Elk

Can you tells us more about both the recording and the group? Both are great examples.

That would be great too, yes



Does the gearslutz board host music clips? I was unaware of this, I should be able to sort some examples to upload

[markr041]

I agree that the tuba and horn really sound receded. The group was spread out across the stage - two trumpets on the left, but the tuba was slightly behind. I do not recall placement exactly now, as I have made scores of recordings since this one. The ORTF pair was in the middle facing the group about 10 feet away. The particular hall also just totally blocks bass in general, whether a cello or a tuba.

You got amateur right too - music school grad students.

I am sure placement of the players would better balance the sound. I believe that improved player placement rather than going to the close micing of each instrument is the solution; a bunch of close-miced instruments mixed together electronically never sound natural to me and makes me irritable when listening! Each instrument needs air to sound good.

I have noticed that ensembles when playing on stage place the horn and tuba behind. Seems odd, given we willl never have a problem hearing high trumpets.

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by Dange

Hi Ehrich,

I'm glad I'm not alone in the problem!

For a quick example of the genre, The Black Dyke Band are here - Black Dyke Band on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

The two tracks, 'Deep Harmony' and 'Queensbury' contrast and show the massive dynamic range these bands can have. The 'Queensbury' recording sounds brilliant and I am just listening on laptop speakers at the moment...


Will seek out other recordings

Any suggestions for spot mics to try, ribbons, condensers?

Change the ribbons for condensers.

Pretty much every Dyke recording you'll here will be multimiked and not done with a pair - the obvious exception being the Whit Friday recordings which are done outside with a pair.

The gear list on the Doyen Mobile page may give you some idea as to their preferences. If you listen to any of the other World of Brass recordings - including the stuff on the Egon label - they have different preferences again. They're now recorded under the moniker of World of Sound, but used to be the recording wing of B+H sound.

My preferences depend on the venue, the Band and the repertoire but the mic box will usually include 414B ULS, KM183/4, Schoeps. CMC6 with MK2, MK21, MK5, KM100 series with omni and sub omni heads, TLM170R and Beyer MC740s in varying proportions.

With British amateur brass bands the limiting factor is usually the room (or the playing in a fair few cases!) Rather than the gear as there is little appreciation of the effect it has and usually very little budget.

[Elk]

Thanks!

Very helpful.

[ljudatervinning]

My experience is that Brass Bands are very hard to capture well balanced with only two microphones, however it can be done.

- Use omnis as main pair, i.e. DPA 4006 to capture the low end.
- Microphone placement is the key. Brass instrument have a very "focused sound". Tuba, horn, baritone and euphonium pointing up, and the rest pointing towards the band master.

Keep them relatively high. (3-4 m)
1-2m from the band master. Too close will capture too much euphonium, to distant will capture too little euphonium, horn, detail etc. Placement is the key, and the really hard part to master.

Example with omni as main pair (DPA 4006) with spot microphones.
2chan, flanks+spot

[Dange]

Originally Posted by Aural Reject

Change the ribbons for condensers.

Pretty much every Dyke recording you'll here will be multimiked and not done with a pair - the obvious exception being the Whit Friday recordings which are done outside with a pair.

This is what I had thought they did.

I have a recording coming up shortly, and while I can't afford to buy a load more mics for spot mic'ing I will hire some.

I'm going to keep the Royer SF-12 as the 'pair' but really play with the positioning.

I'll then spot mic the sections, couple of mics per section.

I already have 2 Beyer MC740s and matched pair of Rode NT55 (I will use these on percussion most probably). I can borrow a Neumann TLM170 and a Neumann TLM193.

Any suggestions for the spot mic'ing sections? Will probably hire 4 mics, might be good to get a mixture, two pairs of different mics for comparision. I'd like to try some KM184s, any others?

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by Dange

This is what I had thought they did.

I have a recording coming up shortly, and while I can't afford to buy a load more mics for spot mic'ing I will hire some.

I'm going to keep the Royer SF-12 as the 'pair' but really play with the positioning.

I'll then spot mic the sections, couple of mics per section.

I already have 2 Beyer MC740s and matched pair of Rode NT55 (I will use these on percussion most probably). I can borrow a Neumann TLM170 and a Neumann TLM193.

Any suggestions for the spot mic'ing sections? Will probably hire 4 mics, might be good to get a mixture, two pairs of different mics for comparision. I'd like to try some KM184s, any others?

Too much depends on external factors like the room, quality of the Band, what they're playing and the Producer's preference to make any specific recommendations.

KM184s are probably the least used mic in my box - having said that I did point one at Mark Wilkinson, Principal cornet of Fodens last week and it didn't make him sound bad . - and I'm at a stage where I'm preferring subs and omnis more than cardioids.

One thing to bear in mind is that some Bands won't tolerate being 'overmiked', both in the sense that you could reveal too much, er, detail that they won't thank you for and also the performance anxiety that comes from being faced with being recorded. Both tend to be less of a problem with more experienced players.

Who is it you're recording and where?

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Dange

I have a recording coming up shortly, and while I can't afford to buy a load more mics for spot mic'ing I will hire some.

Any suggestions for the spot mic'ing sections? Will probably hire 4 mics, might be good to get a mixture, two pairs of different mics for comparision. I'd like to try some KM184s, any others?

First off, yes, most of the time you'll need to spot mic brass ensembles. Not to point out the obvious, but the bells are not pointing in the same direction. Unless it's a session where you are able to move players and/or surfaces to compensate, you'll need some spots. I personally like MK21's for this purpose. They add just enough room sound. Also, don't put spots too close! That's a huge pet peeve of mine.

[Dange]

The band is a competant amatuer band in a school hall.

Not been to the hall myself yet, but the guy I'm doing the recording with has.

It has a stage at one end, is medium sized, has an arched (vaulted) roof, and various drapes/curtains along walls (as acoustic treatment I'm guessing).

[Dange]

Here's an example of a recording in the same space, it's my benchmark for the session

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by Dange

The band is a competant amatuer band in a school hall.

Not been to the hall myself yet, but the guy I'm doing the recording with has.

It has a stage at one end, is medium sized, has an arched (vaulted) roof, and various drapes/curtains along walls (as acoustic treatment I'm guessing).

They're all amateur bands - there hasn't been a fully professional Band since Besses did the World Tours in the early 1900s - even including Dyke + Grimethorpe What's the track record in recording? I've been in front of Bands that perform well enough in concerts and competitions but go to bits with mics in front of them....anyway, I digress, it's the producer's job to do the man management.

School halls can be a real mixed bag....sometimes they sound good, sometimes they don't. They may contain all sorts of things that can leg you up - ticking clocks, school bells that haven't / can't be turned off, scheduled maintenance on the trees outside, a rubgy tournament on the field just outside the hall...and almost invariably too small when they play loud stuff.

Get mics that will allow you a degree of flexibility and allow you to think laterally when you're on site.

Enjoy the session.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Elk

I think what happens is that our ears compensate while we are listening, while the mics pick up what is actually there.

Originally Posted by ljudatervinning

Tuba, horn, baritone and euphonium pointing up, and the rest pointing towards the band master.

That's why we need spot mics. It's our eyes, too, compensating...

Spot mics don't necessarily need to be close mics, as some replies seem to suppose. The only thing I'd mic a bit closer, maybe 2 or 3 ft above the bell and slightly off the bell's axis, is the tuba (prefer KM184 here). All that horn and baritone stuff needs lots of room (I mean, we *do* hear mostly reflected sound from these). MK21 is a great choice, as is KM143. What to use as main pair depends on the hall...

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

The only thing I'd mic a bit closer, maybe 2 or 3 ft above the bell and slightly off the bell's axis, is the tuba

It really depends on the band......some, absolutely, others you may wish to try micing from the car park

[Roland]

I've had the priviledge of recording the Royal Opera House brass ensemble several times and as many other have said I would consider using condensor mic's rather than ribbon's. Ribbons are great and particularly useful as spots on brass, however often they roll off quite a bit on the top end. I have a bit of the ROH ensemble on my mastering system and if I get a chance I will load a sample in the next couple of days.

Also I wouldn't be afraid of using some spot mic's, when I'm recording Brass bands/ensembles I often will put up a few spots.

Regards


Roland

[sonare]

The sound world of the British Brass Band is darker than a "normal" brass ensemble thanks to the cornet and eupho (and tuba) conical rather than cylindical bore. Precise- yes; but the rest depends on the room and the players.

The OP was wondering about the SF12 in regards to phasing, etc. The SF12 is a pure Blumlein stereo mic, and as such cannot be out-of-phase unless you have players beyond a 60 degree arc (facing forward)-- and to solve that (and for that little bit of transient response lacking with ribbons) using flankers such as the Schoeps Mk2 is unsurpassed. You can also use the Mk21 or the Neumann TLM170 or even 193-- both are rather "dark"-- unlike the KM line.

As for spots-- too many unknowns-- acoustics, how much "detail" is helpful, etc.

You could also try an AEA "The Ribbon Preamp" AKA TRP on your SF12 to see if you are missing anything. Comparing your input impedance (the higher the kohm number the better) to the TRP might prove interesting.

Rich