Multi tracking Philharmonic Orchestra

[Gaston69]

Guys,

I need some advice on recording a big philharmonic orchestra (120 musicians) in a „bad” sounding hall.

I’ve been recording classical music for quit a while using just a stereo pair of microphones such like B&K 4006 or DPA-4060 (most cases with great results, depending on the acoustics) however I have been recently assigned to record all concerts of a Philharmonic orchestra which does not have a concert hall yet (new concert hall to be expected ready January 2010). They use for the time being a conference hall which has a low ceiling (see pictures attached), parallel walls which are cladded with hard wood panels (standing waves, flutter) this all causes a sound spectrum which is far from being in balance. For example the wood winds are hard to hear as they are literally being blown away by the brass section. In this case I would like to add some microphones in order to support.

What approach would you take with microphone setup and what do you do the mix?

Mics available:

2 x B&K 4006
4 x DPA-4060
8 x Sennheiser 8040 (Cardiod)


Pre-amps:

Crookwood Paintpot with AD converter and remote control
Metric Halo ULN-2 & 2882 DSP legacy boxes
Yamaha DM1000 mixer
Macbook Pro 17” running Logic 9.02 / Metric Halo software

Gaston

[mljung]

What a strange room!

I can understand why you hesitate using your normal setup, it's very hard to believe it would work using a stereo omni setup.

8040 as main pickup and the DPA's pretty close supporting low-level sections, would be my best [obvious] guess, but it looks very tough to get right from the pictures and description.

Remember to say this very clearly to those who hire you, before doing anything. Unfortunately some people believe that good equipment can make any hall sound good in a recording, and if it doesn't they may believe that you just wasn't up to the task.

Best of luck

::
Mads

[Gaston69]

First of all thanks for the advice, but these people know that the hall if far from ideal and they look forward to get a new home.

I will try the setup you proposed.

Gaston

[rumleymusic]

8040 as main pickup and the DPA's pretty close supporting low-level sections, would be my best [obvious] guess, but it looks very tough to get right from the pictures and description.

If I had a guess that would be it. Use as many of the Senns for mains and section mics as you can (esp brass), possibly stick the little dpas on the timps and percussion and the 4006's close to the instruments that have difficulty projecting in a hotel conference room like harp or soloists.

I have recorded in rooms like this a couple of times, it is never fun, pray for that new hall.

[bkbirge]

I don't have anything new to add from the other posters but I'll just say that looks like a fun challenge! If that's a permanent setup until the new hall in 2010 I'd probably bring in some acoustic treatment but I guess that's not practical if it's a rental hall that you gotta load in/out each session.

[7rojo7]

Set up the musicians so they sound good in that room, put the mics where they need to go. If there's no audience, then there's no reason to set up for a concert.
You can get more space between the instruments.
Are there risers? If not you'll have to take each section any way.
If you end up with a good sound in the room, then go for a main array (I'd suggest an OCT) If not, don't worry about taking a bad sounding room or non traditional placement. If you're multitracking, take something any way, but I wouldn't place a lot of importance on it.
You might want to think about a little sound reinforcement for the Harp, even a little autoamplified studio monitor placed in front of the harp, a feed from it's spot.
A lot of problems with the room may disappear when it's full of people. There should be a pretty good critical distance factor for seperation. Use the faults to your advantage, If you can't make a traditional style recording, just make a great recording and hope they play good.

[pkautzsch]

I guess that you might end up miking each section individually with the 8040s. That's 5 mics for the strings, then three or four 4060s (better: more cardioids or even fig-8s with the null towards the brass) across the winds, leaving you another 3 8040s for soloists and harp. A main pair (or should I rather say, glue pair) of 4006s could be mounted to the ceiling as quasi-PZMs, that way "eliminating" the (too early) early reflexion from the (too low) ceiling.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

A main pair (or should I rather say, glue pair) of 4006s could be mounted to the ceiling as quasi-PZMs, that way "eliminating" the (too early) early reflexion from the (too low) ceiling.

Interesting idea, but why not use the 4060 for this..?

*
Agree that fig8 would have been nice to have to avoid reflections. Maybe even as mains with Faulkner's Phased Array System, close to the ensemble [and two more as "outriggers"].

::
Mads

[Roland]

Originally Posted by mljung

Interesting idea, but why not use the 4060 for this..?

*
Agree that fig8 would have been nice to have to avoid reflections. Maybe even as mains with Faulkner's Phased Array System, close to the ensemble [and two more as "outriggers"].

::
Mads

PZM's will pick up too much room, not giving you much chance for post production reverb. The Faulkner array, Tony devised for using in a room with a particularly bad side reflection. Short of a complete multi-miked set-up (and there are issues in bad acoustics that can still be a problem with this), using cardioid's across the front and discreetly on woodwind and quiet instruments like harp gives you half a chance. Brass shouldn't need spots as they blow across everything. Timps usually only need spotting for focus, but in a dry room this is rarely necessary.

Regards


Roland

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Roland

PZM's will pick up too much room, not giving you much chance for post production reverb. Roland

The PZM idea was proposed by pkautzsch to 'glue' the sound of the room and the ensemble.

I think it's a good idea, could be a good thing to have in post [maybe pretty heavily eq'ed] to possibly get some hint of atmosphere of the venue, if it has any qualities at all.
If it doesn't work, don't use it

The Fig8 are not there so there's no reason to go further in that direction/discussion

::
Mads

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by mljung

Interesting idea, but why not use the 4060 for this..?

Because Gaston has four 4060s and two 4006, and might want to use the four identical mics for spots.
Plus the 4060s have higher self noise.
Plus they are smaller and therefore easier to set up on a crowded stage.

[rumleymusic]

I don't know if trying to catch ambient sound in this kind of space is a good idea. The floors are carpet, the ceiling is most likely somewhat absorbent, and who knows about the walls (sometimes these ball rooms have a giant sound absorbing wall divider). I still think the best bet is to use the full compliment of mics to try to get as much direct sound as possible, as if one was recording out doors. Some careful mixing and reverb will be unavoidable.

[Gaston69]

I proposed to invest in acoustic treatment such like moveable panels/diffusers however that's a no go as its a rental hall and we are not allowed to drill any holes in the wall or ceiling. Anyway these "modifications" would not increase the size of hall or the height of it but would help to take away the standing waves. But there will no investments made in that direction bearing in mind that they might move soon to a new location.

I can see there a number of approaches of dealing with "bad" acoustics but also believe that each approach brings new challenges/problems such like phase, delays etc etc and to be honest have never dealed with this therefore I am a little "afraid" to take that step.

I posted a sample of a concert made in this particular hall with a Nagra LB and a pair of DPA4060, before on this website see Nagra LB - DPA 4060 - Sound Sample of a Forest

Can you please listen for yourself and tell me what you hear?

Gaston

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Gaston69

I proposed to invest in acoustic treatment such like moveable panels/diffusers however that's a no go as its a rental hall and we are not allowed to drill any holes in the wall or ceiling. Anyway these "modifications" would not increase the size of hall or the height of it but would help to take away the standing waves. But there will no investments made in that direction bearing in mind that they might move soon to a new location.

I can see there a number of approaches of dealing with "bad" acoustics but also believe that each approach brings new challenges/problems such like phase, delays etc etc and to be honest have never dealed with this therefore I am a little "afraid" to take that step.

I posted a sample of a concert made in this particular hall with a Nagra LB and a pair of DPA4060, before on this website see Nagra LB - DPA 4060 - Sound Sample of a Forest

Can you please listen for yourself and tell me what you hear?

Gaston

thumbsup But that's not bad [if I heard the right one]. A little distant maybe, but it's more a question of taste.

If you have tracks enough, why don't you just put up your usual onno setup and at the same time [as an alternative] make a near coincident setup with outriggers using 4 8040, and then ad a few spots if necessary.

[Then you have a good palette of possibilities in the mix afterwords, and it's still simple]


::
Mads

[Malc180s]

For something like this I think you'd be insane not to close mic everything.

Main pair should be cardioid n' all.

[7rojo7]

Set everyone up in diagonal. If you can't bring Mohammed... You'll get rid of 90% of the problems like this. Put the percussion in the corner behind everything, work it outwards with the brass, get the strings in a semi circle and put the winds and solos in front. Mic each section and do it well. I've read many posts by you and I'm sure that you have the knowledge and sensitivity to pull this through like a champ.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

Set everyone up in diagonal. If you can't bring Mohammed... You'll get rid of 90% of the problems like this. Put the percussion in the corner behind everything, work it outwards with the brass, get the strings in a semi circle and put the winds and solos in front. Mic each section and do it well. I've read many posts by you and I'm sure that you have the knowledge and sensitivity to pull this through like a champ.

Great idea, but with a professional band this is never going to happen, and you would have your proverbial's chopped off for trying to suggest it. As I understand, (reading between the lines of the original and subsequent posts) it is a question of concert recordings, prior to them moving to their new, permanent home.

Regards


Roland

[7rojo7]

MDs do tend to be somewhat finicky. Hope he finds a solution to make some good recordings. If they play good then there's a 90% chance. The riser factor is what would bother me. I think mic'ing from above is the safest place to start, as for the positioning of the orchestra, it would be better if they had an open mind about it, firstly, so they could hear themselves. Since the seating will not be like a concert seating (no risers) and the room is not a concert hall, I would leave any main pair philosphy untill the end. Pan until it sounds like something, good reverb time align the mics.
I wrote a short piece for a 72 piece brass orchestra that rehearsed in a tent because their facilities were rendered unoccupable by an earthquake, horrendous. This seems much better.
(edit) just saw the risers and such, you should be fine there from what I just saw, I would go with a pretty normal approach, you just won't have a great hall sound, you'll have to avoid the reflections from the sides (all wood panels) and calculate what the standing wave frequency would be, you may need to eq your mains. if you can (same story with the MD) try recording with the entrance open, you'll have less congestion, the ceiling actually looks kind of friendly
I originally thought this was for recording rehearsals or repertory and did not imagine a public. But it got me thinking.

[Gaston69]

I was yesterday alone in the "concert" hall in order to record only the air conditioning so I can create a "fingerprint" of the noise in the hope that I can cancel out the back ground noise of my recordings. On top I also walked on stage and clapped in my hands at various locations while recording, please listen for your self.

Comments, critics are welcome as well as advice in order to improve the recordings.

See also the pictures.

[Plush]

From your pictures I would expect this place to sound fairly bad. And it does.

The low ceiling and particularly the shallow stage with towering back wall present too many challenges. It is not a serious place to do work. It is fine for casual recording work or for taping for listening copies.

Don't work too hard to try to turn it in to something real.

[BrianHanke]

Wow, I think my living room sounds better than that. What about putting up some of those portable free-standing acoustic panels for sound absorption? I often see them used for orchestra and choir concerts in multi-purpose theaters.

[Gaston69]

Hi Plush,

I know what you mean, therefor I am not keen on placing more mics as I strongly believe that with air con noises and reflections will causes more harm then any good.
However like I stated before I have no experience with multi tracking a classical orchestra but I am willing to experiment and to learn and working with this orchestra gives me chance to do so.

On 21st of November I will do another live recording and this time I have a day to setup my gear which is very luxury, in most cases I just arrive 1,5 hour before concert starts and have to setup everything very fast without sound check.

Will post results later next week.

[Plush]

That place and that job are the perfect place to experiment. That is because the expectations for the job are not for professional use. Not having pressure to produce
a product for release means that you can do whatever you want.

Every person who is starting out needs a job like this one!

Have fun with it.

[Gaston69]

The recordings are mainly for archival purposes and for the orchestra itself.

[boojum]

Gaston you are so blessed to have these gigs to record. I truly envy you. It is a great opportunity to learn by doing. Keep us all in the loop.

[andrew.levine]

Hi there,

I am a bit late in this thread, but I thought I'd chime in nevertheless :-)

When I record a symphony orchestra (in a good or problematic space) I have had good results with an adaptation of the original DECCA-tree approach (that uses Neumann M50's with frequency-coupled directivity) using two RoyerLabs SF-1 ribbons flanking the conductor left & right. I figured why not go directive all the way. For this recording I placed an AB-pair (Earthworks QTC-1 @ 51 cm) in the middle of the orchestra, but I have also experimented with a central XY-pair to get a bit more from the woodwinds. Symmetry has been a key throughout.

blumlein records - spot (church)

Another thing that has worked (for an Otello) is an AB-pair (4060 @ 51 cm) above the stage & two cardioids (Elation KM201) at the pit, facing sideways left and right of the conductor.

SOL - Small Opera Live (sports hall)

Regards,

Andrew

[GuySonic]

Benefits of multi-mic recording of large orchestra comes with a lot of control over what and how stuff gets recorded, and is a lot of work in set up, and even more work making a mix sound acceptable. Too often the multitrack mics and final mix changes the entire interpretation of a classical piece from the conductor's and audience's viewpoints.

I have had only one opportunity (so far) to compare the commercial mix with an accurate minimal mic performance audience position recording so that interpretation differences might be compared.

Definitely not a complete study on the subject of minimal verses multitrack classical recording benefits and downsides. But a start so maybe we might rethink what might be most importart in recording these performances.

Is control and likely gross mixed re-interpretation always best, or maybe a lot less control to help capture the original interpretation and emotion of the performance as a better recording tact using minimal mic technique worth considering.

This classical performance comparison is posted at: Sonic Studios MP3 Page 2 with Ambient Stereo-Surround Session and Live Performance Recordings

Certainly for the purposes of recording the specific orchestra in a less than ideal room as is this thread's main purpose, using minimal mic technique might well provide a very usable recording for the member's archival purpose, and with minimal troubles for the recordist in setup and later needing little edit.

[andrew.levine]

Originally Posted by GuySonic

[...]
This classical performance comparison is posted at: Sonic Studios MP3 Page 2 with Ambient Stereo-Surround Session and Live Performance Recordings

I downloaded the files to do a comparison--luckily Reaper (REAPER | Audio Production Without Limits) can directly play FLAC files--but they are not aligned throughout. That makes things a little harder. The HRTF-version has a length of 24:18.426, the Multitrack-version of 24:47.093.

For me the HRTF is good for archival purposes only. 100' distance is way too much. I need more pure sound. OTOH this (!) multitrack-mix does not work for me either. I like the clarity and closeness, but it is lacking space and overall cohesiveness. For me it boils down to a Hauptmikrofon that defines the soundstage, possibly augmented by auxiliary mics, and I almost never change the levels once I have established my mix settings.

Check out this sample that I recorded with an AB-pair (2 x Earthworks QTC-1) behind the conductor, 2 flanking ribbons (Royerlabs SF-1) for the high & low strings, as well as 2 ambient microphones (DPA 4060) high up, left & right of the stage. I believe I fed them to AltiVerb for a "smoother" surround.

Richard Wagner - Prelude und Liebestod from Tristan und Isolde
http://surround.blumlein.net/ac3/071006-Wagner.ac3

I found that I can directly play it back via QuickTime with the help of the Perian extension (Perian - The swiss-army knife of QuickTime).

The next time in that venue I flew an ORTF-pair, had a central XY-spot for the woodwinds and a better position for my ambient microphones where I could use them directly.

Regards,

Andrew

[GuySonic]

Originally Posted by andrew.levine

Check out this sample that I recorded with an AB-pair (2 x Earthworks QTC-1) behind the conductor, 2 flanking ribbons (Royerlabs SF-1) for the high & low strings, as well as 2 ambient microphones (DPA 4060) high up, left & right of the stage. I believe I fed them to AltiVerb for a "smoother" surround.

Richard Wagner - Prelude und Liebestod from Tristan und Isolde
http://surround.blumlein.net/ac3/071006-Wagner.ac3

Regards,

Andrew

Excellent natural sounding sample easly showing benefits of several minimal mic arrays with choice placements, and sensitive final mix choices.

My 'comparison' sample good only for interpretation differences, and the excessive distance of minimal mic position only practical place for recordist customer with 'no access' status to the practice session, and so not the commercially recorded performance explaining the difference in selection time.

For hearing better audio of minimal mic positioning from someone having 'full access' suggest Jim Dukey's HRTF baffled mic direct to D100 DAT on-the-stage live performance instrument/SF symphony orchestral recording clips:
http://74.208.10.48/mp3/dukeyguy.mp3
http://74.208.10.48/mp3/hayden.mp3

[chai t]

i have a question regarding your 2882's. how does it hold up for recording orchestra? i'm getting one and do roughly the same stuff as you(bad halls as well). i would like to know your opinion of the unit.

thanks,

chai