help save my violin recording!

[guosh]

did some recordings of a violin for a friend's audition tape and i'm not really impressed by my own work. the actual session's next week though (this was somewhat of a test run), and i'm trying to see what i can do to improve so please lend me your ears!

chain was hebden 3010s on a j-disk -> profire 610 (had to use its preamps as my SCA pres are still shipping) -> sequoia

recording was done in a rehearsal auditorium, about 20x15m with a 6m high ceiling, though with all kinds of items littered around the room such as percussion instruments, chairs and a baby grand piano.

the file was slightly edited, with a hp filter at 50hz to offset the rumble of the air conditioning and noise reduction

my options are
1) get a better room (might be able to get a room in the local conservatory)
2) change my mics and technique
3) edit in post-production (but i'm not very good at it, and results usually aren't great)


i tend to find it a little fatiguing to my ears... any comments or ideas?

[hughesmr]

Get a bigger (and better) room, definitely. The "small room sound" is never appealing. As for Jecklin, it can be fine for solo violin ... the current recording is a bit distant for my taste.

[d_fu]

Room size and mic placement (too far away) are the main issues here IMHO. You may be able to EQ some of that away, but not all.
Rerecord in a bigger room. Use a mic or pair up close and a pair somewhat further away, to give yourself the option of adjusting the direct/ambient sound relation.

[chris319]

Room size and mic placement (too far away) are the main issues here IMHO.

Yup. Try cardioids while you're at it. I don't know that a larger room would help the reverb situation.

[Larry Mal]

Yeah, if you're taking away air conditioning and room noise, that should tell you there that you'll need to re-record.

Put a mic up close to the violin, and do an X-Y further back. This way you'll be able to mix in the two to give you a good final product. I don't know what microphones you have available to you, but I'd suggest a couple of small diaphragm condensers for the X-Y and a large diaphragm one for the closer mic, or possibly even a dynamic one if you want to get very close.

Remember that the violin broadcasts in an upward direction mainly, so set the close mic above yourself by a couple of feet with the large diaphragm option. Put the X-Y combination at about 9-10 feet as well, and it's hard for me to say how far away from yourself to place it without knowing the room. If you get a good room, a large room, I'd put it at about eight to twelve feet away at a guess. I can't be very specific without knowing the microphones or the room, you dig? This is all a guess- make of it what you will.

It wouldn't be hard to do a Google search for "violin recording techniques" and find some tried and true alternatives, pick one and go for it.

Please do yourself a favor and pick a room designed for acoustic things. An average room will be detrimental in a lot of ways, standing waves, phase issues, you name it. There's a reason that music isn't recorded in just any old room. You basically have two choices, deaden a room and later add the space artificially, or use a hall designed to work well with instruments or voice. I'd go with option two and let the room do the work.

Good luck, L

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by chris319

I don't know that a larger room would help the reverb situation.

For one, the reverb would likely sound better in a larger room, and secondly, it would be easier to control the direct/ambient sound relation with the distance of the mics from the source. Difficult to do in a small room.

[chris319]

Originally Posted by d_fu

For one, the reverb would likely sound better in a larger room, and secondly, it would be easier to control the direct/ambient sound relation with the distance of the mics from the source. Difficult to do in a small room.

He needs less room reverb and needs to get the mics closer.

[guosh]

thanks for the thoughts!

i'll try moving the mics closer, but it sounded rather edgy to me from a closer position, with some comb-filter effects from the different radiation characteristics of the formants i reckon

hopefully i'll get to try it in a bigger room on wednesday, as i suspect that the reverb from the room could be causing rather unnatural effects because it really did sound worse from a nearer position

also, regarding placing the microphones higher, i tried it, and although it worked better for the violin, in the other audition piece there is an accompanying piano which does sound a little weird at that height. although the focus is definitely on the violin soloist, i found the piano a little too artificial.

since its going to video, i'm trying to avoid close-miking, using my jecklin behind the camera. maybe i'll try placing the performers in a different position, but its also a little difficult as they prefer to have eye contact

what would you do though? do you reckon its ok for the piano to not sound as good, but focus on the violin's sound since its an audition tape for the violinist and not the pianist? this is one decision that i'm having some trouble making

[chris319]

since its going to video, i'm trying to avoid close-miking, using my jecklin behind the camera

That may be your problem. Omni mics + large room + distant miking = the distant sound you are getting. If you absolutely must keeps the mics out of the shot and can't find a less reverberant room, try a couple of cardioids.

Another idea would be to close mic the violin and close mic the piano and in your mixdown put one slightly to the left of center and the other slightly to the right of center. You could try a mic under the piano to keep it off camera and maybe hang the other mic over the violin. Just a suggestion.

[saovi]

Get a quieter room where you're not having to rely so much on noise reduction workarounds. Try a mix of closer spot mics (great for more intricate detail) and other mics that are further away (good for capturing the room ambience) and find a mix of those that works best between those mic positions.

[guosh]

re-recorded today in the same room (as the conservatory rooms were not available) but tried pulling the curtains at the sides to prevent early reflections

also, today was the day i realized that i had to live with quite a number of things - such as the AC rumble. it was a hot day and the performers definitely played better with the air conditioning turned on, which i felt was more important than having the AC noise

another thing was that the piano supplied was not very good, and in fact rather out of tune. the only way we could prevent it from clashing with the violin's intonation was actually by going half-stick so the higher register (which was the most out of tune) did not clash too badly.

they didn't have the budget to relocate to a better room as it is just an audition tape, so we had to find the best compromise

here's a short clip of one of the takes, hope it sounds a little better - or my ears are just playing tricks on me after yet another long day....

[d_fu]

Mics are definitely too far from the source, IMHO...

[guosh]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Mics are definitely too far from the source, IMHO...

oops forgot to note that i changed the mic positioning as well. while it was previously about 5 meters away from the violinist and maybe about a meter above, i brought it closer to about 2 meters away, 1.5 meters above

does it really still sound too distant?

[just.sounds]

Also a good technique to shave the sharp edge of a violin is to put the players on heavy canvas type fabric/rug.

IMHO the room is not sounding small. nice size for chamber music.

Junk on the floor is no problem until it resonates otherwise it is diffusion :-)

[boojum]

To solve the "are the mics close enough" question try recording closer as some have suggested and see how the sound changes.

"One experiment is worth a thousand opinions."

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by guosh

does it really still sound too distant?

For my taste, yes...

[guosh]

i'll be meeting the violinist again tomorrow, and there's no harm getting more material if it helps her audition and allows me to experiment and see what results i can get - i could surely use the practice

i'll post a short clip tomorrow if we happen to record again. thanks for lending me your ears!

[guosh]

managed to re-record today! put the mics much closer, and i felt it sounded much better. thanks for the help!

here is a short clip, and i also recorded a little of their quartet while they were doing some sight-reading of Gershwin's 'someone to watch over me' since my equipment was already setup

[Brocken]

It saddens me to tell you this - but what really ruins the sound is the combination of violin and player. Some horrible chords in there, much too slow, static; and it sounds small because she doesn't let the sound breathe. At all. Same room, same setup, better player?

That would make an actual difference.

[d_fu]

Definitely better - but now the AC is really quite disturbing....

@ Brocken: Since this is an audition recording, it doesn't make much sense to change the performer, does it...?

[chris319]

These recordings sound much better. Nice work! Too bad about the air conditioning noise, though.

what really ruins the sound is the combination of violin and player

With student musicians you play the hand you're dealt.

[guosh]

thanks for the comments!

@ Brocken: actually, i should thank you for pointing that out. the most important thing is that my friend should sound good, and i got her back to redo the fugue one more time while subtly hinting your criticisms. in the end, i think the take we had today sounded the best (since i turned off the AC )

i've never had to do the work of a producer before, but its encouraging to know what a couple of words here and there, making the session relaxed and clearing up little problems can make quite a difference

cheers!

[d_fu]

It still sounds like "small room" a bit (sorry.. ), but it's definitely the best so far, and should do fine for the purpose. When you record her first solo CD, consider a larger hall...

[guosh]

Originally Posted by d_fu

It still sounds like "small room" a bit (sorry.. ), but it's definitely the best so far, and should do fine for the purpose. When you record her first solo CD, consider a larger hall...

thanks daniel, i'll definitely keep that in mind