MKH 8050, CMC641 or DPA 4099 for live double bass?

[Vunz]

As I double bassist I am on a constant search for the ultimate amplified double bass sound: the "like my bass but only louder" kind of tone. After trying almost every kind of pickup (from a Fishman BP-100 via Underwood and Realist to the Schertler DYN-B) I decided a few years ago that the mic-only route is, for me the only way to go. From that moment on, I used a Neumann KM185 on an Xplore audio H-clamp, which enables you to mount the mic to the bass without harming it or changing the acoustic tone. The rest of my amplification consists of a Grace M101 preamp and a Flying Mole power amp mounted on a Glockenklang Acoustic Art Mk 1 cab.

However, I feel that the KM185 might not be the ultimate mic. I always dreamed of a DPA or Schoeps mic, especially since I also want to record my bass with this mic, and the Neumann is a bit to harsh for my taste. I know that Larry Grenadier now uses a Schoeps CMC6 with a MK41 capsule, together with a RNP preamp, but I do not want to exclude other possibilities. As said, my goal is to sound like my bass but only louder, so "neutral" mics seem to be the obvious choice. With this in mind, is the Schoeps a sensible option, or are mics like the Sennheiser MKH 8050 or the DPA 4099, or the 4021 the better choice? I would appreciate your views/opinions!

Thanks,
Vincent

[Roland]

Double basses live are always an enigma, partly because no two instruments are the same and where they produce the best sound isn't a good position for a mic in a live environment, particularly as often it's combined with drums. Bad options are mic's placed inside the body (this often sounds like the bass is being recorded inside an old fashioned wardrobe) and poor quality bugs. Mic's placed facing the f hole can work, but unless the stage is sufficiently large there is often a lot of bleed. I've heard bugs that do work reasonably well and (considering the situation) not too much of a compromise. The biggest issue I think you will find with any of the options you mentioned will be the obvious proximity effect that cardioids/hyper-cardioids have. The old standby of a 57 wrapped in foam and stuffed under the bridge is an option some people recommend, but it's not for me personally. One thing I haven't tried, but keep meaning too is a DPA 4060/4061 fixed to the body or the bridge, allowing the mic to float in semi free space around the f hole. Due to it's omni nature it shouldn't suffer from it's proximity, yet would probably be a lot colser than you could realistically get any other mic, giving some opportunity for more relative volume. If you planned to then amp this signal through a cab I would think that all bets are off, but it could be used for recording with a cab for foldback working off a bug, worth a try if you have the money to spend.

Regards


Roland

[fifthcircle]

There are a lot of great mics out there, but as Roland says, it is all sort of a question of your particular instrument's sound.

I'm a big fan of the DPA 4061. It works really well. For a mic on a stand, I've also been very happy with the SE Electronics Z3300A. It is a cheap mic and isn't great on a lot of stuff, but for bass it sounds very good.

I haven't tried the 8050, but I own a pair of 8040 mics and I think they would do very well. The thing to watch out with those are the huge low end- it is great for some things, but it can get you into trouble as well. With some basses, more lows are not necessarily a good thing. A Schoeps MK41 also is a great sound. With all of these, though, it comes down to the sound that you are looking for with your particualr instrument. Even the flattest mics will color the sound a bit. That is just the way mics work- especially when you're close in to the instrument. See if you can find a place that will let you try a couple mics and go from there...

--Ben

[Vunz]

Thank you for your replies! I agree that an omni such as the DPA 4061 probably would sound really good, but since they are really suspectible to feedback this is not an option for me, at least not in those cases where I have to use my own amp. That is why I have been using a supercardioid, which enabled me to achieve a reasonable volume. But now I am looking for a better quality mic than the Neumann, hence my question.

Thanks,
Vincent

[leddy]

I purchased the DPA 4099 about a week ago. I've used it on a couple of gigs and so far so good.

It is a miniature shotgun, so the off-axis rejection is better than other mics I've used. Soundwise, it seems pretty uncolored. The gain-before-feedback is about 70-80% of what you would get out of a pick-up. Better than a regular cardioid mic.

I have not recorded with it yet, but I may be able to send you a sound file of my bass when I do. I am planning to record a gig a week from Friday. You should be able to hear the mic in context with a drummer and piano - and see how isolated it is.

[tsvisser]

I feel that the MKH 8050 is a pretty respectably full range microphone even for being a super cardioid design. I'd like to get a DPA 4099 for live guitar use too, but haven't been able to compare it to the 8050.

[fifthcircle]

Just because a mic is an omni doesn't mean you won't be able to get much sound out of it. You may find that you need to slightly modify an amps location in comparison to yourself, but when you have a mic that close to the instrument, you get more direct sound from the instrument than from elsewhere... You may get more gain out of other mics, but when close micing like this, don't discount anything until you've tried it.

--Ben

[7rojo7]

For live, go with the Shoertler into your amp. Any amp in any situation is not going to give 'you' what you need, period, the shoertler omni bug is the best I've heard (Charlie Haydn, ca. 1993). I would suggest a half omni (MK21, U89) about 50-60 cm in front of the bridge (worked wonders for Dave Holland), only for FOH, situate yourself with the drums for the least drum bleed for the mic, or, put yourself in the classic 'armpit' of the piano (better acoustically as well, put your amp behind the drummer) Piano stage left, bass in the pit, drums center>a little + frontline, always works from the musicians standpoint and it's easy to record. The piano lid blocks the drums from the piano mics and the bass mic. If the drums can be kept on the other side of the piano lid, so much the better. Then frontline bleed is the only thing you have to resolve.
As a bassist I imagine that you don't do many solo concerts or recordings.
You'll have to keep this in mind.
In the studio, in an isolated setting, you can ask for gold dust.
If you had a 'hot spot' (chest height) monitor to hear the details of what you play might help you more than any mic change.
I would never aim a shotgun at an f hole (bass or cello), I only have to EQ it to death and I could never extract the details of the instrument like this. The bass will be mic.ed from 30 to 100 cm directly in front of the bridge, basta.

[Vunz]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Just because a mic is an omni doesn't mean you won't be able to get much sound out of it. You may find that you need to slightly modify an amps location in comparison to yourself, but when you have a mic that close to the instrument, you get more direct sound from the instrument than from elsewhere... You may get more gain out of other mics, but when close micing like this, don't discount anything until you've tried it.

--Ben

Good point, Ben. Thank you for your insights. I know DPA also stresses that one should not discount an omni until after you have tried it, but I am still a bit reluctant to take the plunge. OTOH, a DPA 4061 isn't that big of an investment, so perhaps I should just try it.

@7rojo7: I know I cannot achieve the same sound quality live as in the studio, but I won't be using a pickup anymore, not even a high quality one as the Schertler. Not only because I believe the sound is not up to par, but also, and more importantly, because the feel of the instrument changes when using a pickup. The way the sound develops through a pickup is so radically different from playing acoustic or via a mic, that the feel literally is completely different. Hence my quest for the right mic. For very high-volume gigs I use an EUB (electric upright bass).

@leddy: I would love to hear a recording of the 4099 on a bass! So yes please!

Thank you all for your replies!

Best,
Vincent

[leddy]

I'll agree that an omni placed up close will give fantastic sound, but it will feedback very quickly if using it for live sound. I've tried it many times.

I strongly recommend hearing the DPA 4099 before you buy anything else if you need live sound mic'ing.

[fifthcircle]

A closely placed omnidirectional mic will not necessarily feed back. Yes, I've done it NUMEROUS times. IMO it is no more likely than a directional mic.

It is, however, more dependant on the player using a little bit of mic technique. The placement of the mic generally works best using the string mount right below the bridge or mounted to the bridge of the instrument (the 4061 is so small, it will not hamper the bridge's vibrations). Also, as with any mic, the player needs to position the instrument and their body as a gobo between the mic and other sources- most notably the drum set. A great player to watch for this is John Clayton. He doesn't even have a pickup on his instrument, preferring to use a mic instead for everything- monitors and PA. He travels with an RE-20, but I've used numerous condensers on him and because he knows how to position a mic and where to stand in relation to everything else, I've gotten amazing sounds using just about anything. If you are amplifying drums in your bass mic, it won't matter what you are using- you'll have a crappy sound.

Along those lines I would also recommend more care in the placement of the amp than most players use (not knowing you, but based on my experiences with other players). Don't be afraid to raise it up placing it on a stand, Don't be afraid to tip it or aim it towards the players that need to hear it. Once again, my experiences are that most players try to fill the room with their amp. Unless they are in a small space with an inadequate PA system, this is usually not necessary- and furthermore, it usually harms the sound of the instrument in the room.

I would love to try the DPA 4099 on a bass... I think it would probably sound pretty fantastic as well. Probably would work very well in a situation where you've got a bass in a rock band and the stage is hopelessly loud.

Forgive me for going off here, but it bugs me when folks talk in absolutes. I only comment and recommend what I have tried and has been successful.

In the end, neither of these mics may work for the OP. That is why I suggested trying to find a dealer that would let him try a few different mics or find a rental house that would do the same. It all depends on the instrument he plays. There are some great sounding basses out there and some not-so-great. With the great ones, it almost seems like it doesn't matter what is out there- it will sound good regardless. The lower-quality ones take a bit more work and definitely benefit from the right piece of gear.

--Ben

[leddy]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Forgive me for going off here, but it bugs me when folks talk in absolutes. I only comment and recommend what I have tried and has been successful.

If this is directed at me, I have played hundreds of gigs in dozens of venues with about 30 different mics looking for the best one for live sound/live recording. There was nothing I posted that did not come from direct experiece.

95% of my gigs are with drummers, often on tight stages with bad acoustics - so perhaps that's why the omni does not work for me. For that matter, few players get as big of a sound as John Clayton. That would make it easier too.

[Vunz]

Originally Posted by leddy

I strongly recommend hearing the DPA 4099 before you buy anything else if you need live sound mic'ing.

Which version are you using? The violin or the guitar version? And how is it attached to your bass? I am on the verge of purchasing a 4099, so I would really appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,
Vincent

[Remoteness]

Hey, what about a MKH800TWIN on upright bass?

I would have never considered it, but I heard one in use during Sennheiser's demo session at Avatar in studio B and I like the sound very much!

The front and rear capsules gave the bass a real openness that I never heard before with another mic.

I'm now seriously considering getting one (or more) of these puppies for my mic locker. I'm not sure if this will work for you, but I'm digging the sound of the MKH800TWIN on double bass very much.

I think I want to do another test during a live date and see if it stands up.

[tsvisser]

A cool thing that you could do with the Twin, is send a hypercardioid pattern to the PA and record it as omni, due to the unique capsule / output arrangement.

[Remoteness]

Absolutely!

[springer]

Here's Larry's setup (for reference) from a show I did with him...
The R122 is not his but I was using it to record...

[Vunz]

The Sennheiser, although certainly an intriguing option, is out of my budget. Springer: wast Larry using the mic only for FOH, or also for his own monitoring? And how did it sound? Could he go loud enough?

Thanks,
Vincent

[sonare]

Here is a picture of a 4099 on a bass (on a previous thread)

RE20 for upright bass into Bose L1

I use it pointing at the fingers tho. I will also try to post a clip when I find the time.

I will say that I do NOT do FOH with this-- it is only for live recording during concert that uses minimal PA (and a FOH guy who is set in his ways and usually uses a pickup), and after years of trying 4061, RE20, 4003, etc etc this is the BEST.

When Santa brings me a U47FET and some gobos I'll try that. But SOMEONE will object!

Rich

[springer]

Yeah - he sounded great - it was only for FOH and he just ran it thru the house board into a wedge monitor that he had in back of him. It was Fly Trio so very low volume.

[Graybass]

Hello

Firstly, thank you everyone. This has been a very educational page for me.

I own the Euphonic Audio Iamp Doubler, and am also deeply into the Mic Search.

It seems like the DPA 4099 is the most affordable and most consistently rated product so far.

I have personally tried the ATM 250 DE. It is a dual element (condenser and dynamic) mic. I was trying this out to see if blending a dynamic and condenser with the EA Doubler was a good idea. I have not been totally successful yet, but it may still yeild results. It has also been nice to have the flexibility of a few different sounds to use on their own or blended. This does seem too complicated in the long run, hence asking about the DPA 4099.

What is the final word on your mic choice Vunz? The MKH 8050 is almost 2X the price, did you find the DPA to stand up to it? Any recordings I could hear?

Does anyone have concerns about dynamic mics on bass vs. condenser?

How about blending 2 together?

The last question that affecting me now is that I also purchased the FMR Really Nice Preamp. It does wonders for a mic, but into the EA Doubler, I am not sure if they sort of cancel each other out. Does anyone have any advice on whether or not to even bother with a mic pre before the EA doubler preamp.

Thank you again. Look forward to your posts. You all have a vast amount of knowledge!

Justin