Recording system for live music via a DiGiCo SD8 ???

[audioshark]

Hey guys, I have been looking for a neat setup for recording 48ch while doing a mix to tape in an OB van.

I was into buying RME micstasy preamps with I64 cards, coax into my smaller OB truck, RME PCI card and connect it all together with two XLogic Alpha-Link MADI SX running with AES or analog to a mixer for mixing directly to tape.

This system will be rather expensive and I recently heard of the SD8 by DigiCo,
Will this setup even work, because if it does it’s cheap!

Imagine a SD8 in the OB van connected to a laptop for recording.
In most cases we are doing location recordings without those standards BSS microphone splits so I thought of buying the bigger DigiRack having 56 inputs and 32 analog outputs to feed the monitor console, will this work, can it be a direct output, pre the microphone preamp with no latency ?

Also is the SD8 microphone preamps good enough compared to micstasy?
Having the +48V phantom power on all channels, will there be pops while the monitor guy patching?

Also is it possible to record with everything flat while having internal efx on the directmix ?


If there is anything I have forgotten about, please help me out!
Thanks guys!

[audioshark]

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[audioshark]

anyone able to varify this setup ?

[gurubuzz]

Look into the Macki 1640i x 3


These have balanced outs directly after the preanmps and before eq.

There is talk that if there is demand they will make a Mixermixer to join multiple units .

It has firewire that you can insert your computer channels directly into the path. So if you are doing a broadcast mix you can have all channels discretely passing through DAW channels.

There was an interview James did with the Mackie guy on this forum...worth a listen and a cheap option.

[gurubuzz]

[audioshark]

Thanks for the tip!

I would like to have a optic solution, a neat, easy setup. Its hard to handle 100 meters of analog multicore up to 48channels on your own, much easier with a coax

[Remoteness]

Please consider posting OB van question in the Remote Possibilities... forum.
I promise you will get a lot more replies if you do so!

As you can see, I have moved your thread for your convenience.

DiGiCo desks \m/ RAWK by the way!

[bossaroel]

I have used a similar setup very succesfully since the beginning of this year. I have recorded several "high profile" DVD and CD releases that way and I am very satisfied with the overall quality.

I use a Digico SD8 with the standard 48in-24out stagerack and coaxial MADI cables to go to my "controlroom" in the venue (normally an empty dressingroom). From the MADI B connections on the SD8 I go to my Protools HD2 rig and also to a RME Madiface/Logic setup for backup.
Everything is clocked by a Big Ben.

The MADI signal I am recording is mirrored (pre EQ/fader) from the MADI input from the stage so I can make a separate broadcastmix and use all the EQ's and FX's without affecting the multitrack recording. It's a very cost effective, high quality and simple setup.

I don't think it's a good idea to feed the PA from the stagerack outputs because your gain settings will affect the feed to the PA. There is no way to route the preamps directly to the stagerack outputs, you would have to use channel direct out's...So best use a splitter system.

Here are some pictures of the setup in action:
APEX Belux - Company - Novastar chooses a Digico SD8 for the audio capturing of the new DVD


Hope this helps.

Roel

[LX3]

Hey, AudioShark, funny you should mention this, as I have been thinking along exactly the same lines.

Are you in the UK? I might be able to help you out.

[audioshark]

Originally Posted by bossaroel

I have used a similar setup very succesfully since the beginning of this year. I have recorded several "high profile" DVD and CD releases that way and I am very satisfied with the overall quality.

I use a Digico SD8 with the standard 48in-24out stagerack and coaxial MADI cables to go to my "controlroom" in the venue (normally an empty dressingroom). From the MADI B connections on the SD8 I go to my Protools HD2 rig and also to a RME Madiface/Logic setup for backup.
Everything is clocked by a Big Ben.

The MADI signal I am recording is mirrored (pre EQ/fader) from the MADI input from the stage so I can make a separate broadcastmix and use all the EQ's and FX's without affecting the multitrack recording. It's a very cost effective, high quality and simple setup.

I don't think it's a good idea to feed the PA from the stagerack outputs because your gain settings will affect the feed to the PA. There is no way to route the preamps directly to the stagerack outputs, you would have to use channel direct out's...So best use a splitter system.

Here are some pictures of the setup in action:
APEX Belux - Company - Novastar chooses a Digico SD8 for the audio capturing of the new DVD


Hope this helps.

Roel

Hey bossaroe, it helps alot! Looks great indead!

As for the direct output to stage I had hoped for...you cant get it all it seems :( Still a very neat setup

Any ideas if its possible to make an passive split on the inputs to a multicore connection to feed the stage ? I have not found any info if there is any solder points in the Madi/digirack that are easy to modify. Other wise its another 5k euros for a splitter system. Well the cheapest I found so far (12 standard) is the T-racks found at thomann.de THE T.RACKS MSP12-4 - U.K. International Cyberstore

Also have you had any problems with +48, do you get any pops if you connect/reconnect microphones when having the phantom switched on (venue and stage) ? I assume you use your own microphones for the audience as well. Any problems with pops in the rack when connect/reconnecting those ?

You say you have a backupsystem, have you had any problems and if you had what kinda problems have you faced so far ?

If they have madi on stage, is it possible they can feed you a signal that is pre everything (post Mic gain I assume) for you to record&mix ?

I read something about sharing Gains, is it a way to switch that off somehow ?

What system do you use to get picture from stage ? I dont need a high quality feed just to see whats going on.

We have had an analog coax solution before and a camera somewhere around the monitor console but now I have an idea to make the setup even more slim using a wireless connection using a "high quality" webcam at FoH instead for better view. Any Ideas ?

[audioshark]

Originally Posted by LX3

Hey, AudioShark, funny you should mention this, as I have been thinking along exactly the same lines.

Are you in the UK? I might be able to help you out.

Hey man, Im located in Sweden, a tiny drawback
Feel free to contact me, Im sure we can help eachother out!

[bossaroel]

Originally Posted by audioshark

Hey bossaroe, it helps alot! Looks great indead!

As for the direct output to stage I had hoped for...you cant get it all it seems :( Still a very neat setup

Any ideas if its possible to make an passive split on the inputs to a multicore connection to feed the stage ? I have not found any info if there is any solder points in the Madi/digirack that are easy to modify. Other wise its another 5k euros for a splitter system. Well the cheapest I found so far (12 standard) is the T-racks found at thomann.de THE T.RACKS MSP12-4 - U.K. International Cyberstore

Also have you had any problems with +48, do you get any pops if you connect/reconnect microphones when having the phantom switched on (venue and stage) ? I assume you use your own microphones for the audience as well. Any problems with pops in the rack when connect/reconnecting those ?

You say you have a backupsystem, have you had any problems and if you had what kinda problems have you faced so far ?

If they have madi on stage, is it possible they can feed you a signal that is pre everything (post Mic gain I assume) for you to record&mix ?

I read something about sharing Gains, is it a way to switch that off somehow ?

What system do you use to get picture from stage ? I dont need a high quality feed just to see whats going on.

We have had an analog coax solution before and a camera somewhere around the monitor console but now I have an idea to make the setup even more slim using a wireless connection using a "high quality" webcam at FoH instead for better view. Any Ideas ?

I wouldn't try to mess with customizing the stagerack to make internal passive splits, just use an externel splitter system. I am using the Radial OX8 splitters (with Jenssen transformers), not cheap but very good quality.

On some recording dates I even have used a simple passive split (non transformer) for FOH, monitors and recording. The advantage of the remote stagerack is that you can put it right next to the PA stageboxes and give it power from the same source as the PA so normally you won't have issues with groundloops. That's a cheap solution that will work just fine most of the times.

Regarding 48v and pop's: You will always have noise and pop's whenever plugging or unplugging lines, whatever recordingsystem or splitters you are using. That's why all channels have to be muted when patching.

My backupsystem is just a second computer recording the same MADI feed from the stage, because computers can never be 100% trusted.... Also my MADI lines to the stage are redundant (that's a standard Digico feature). I haven't had any problems up to now and I try to keep it that way.

The "gain sharing" feature on the Digico's is meant to be used when two desks are sharing one stagerack. One desk is the "master" which controls the gain setting. The other desk will automatically adjust the level digitally. When using only one desk gain sharing is not used.

I get my video feed from the video company

Roel

[LX3]

Originally Posted by audioshark

Hey man, Im located in Sweden, a tiny drawback
Feel free to contact me, Im sure we can help eachother out!

[that's frustrating, I just wrote a long detailed reply, and it seems to have got lost somewhere]

I've seen quite a few SD8s on the road this year. The Digicos are definitely convenient to record from, but I have a few issues that are stopping me from jumping on the SD8 as a dedicated recording system:

* Channel count - it comes as standard with a 48-input rack. I think you may have to choose a different rack to get 56 inputs. But for me, 56 inputs wouldn't be quite enough. I haven't worked out whether it's possible to connect a second rack and still echo the extra inputs over a fourth MADI connection on the desk for recording. Possibly not. It's a shame Digico don't support the 64-channel MADI standard, as I find 64 a bit of a sweet-spot. If they did, I could live with 56-channels and insert another 8 from somewhere else...

(Anyone know of a hardware device that accepts 56-channel MADI and spits it out again as 64-channel? - obviously with no audio on the last eight).

Plus, even if it was possible to record using a second stage rack, you've got to factor in the cost of the extra rack.

* No high sample rates - like a lot of live boards, it only operates at 44.1 or 48k. I've been asked for 72 tracks of 96kHz before. Although you have a game on your hands if you want to do 72 tracks of 96kHz on any MADI-based system. Funny, there are times when an "old-school" analog system is actually easier to work with.

I think you would definitely need a conventional mic splitter if you want stage crews to like you.

But I think the SD8 is a really nice live board. If I were running a medium-size PA company it would probably be my first choice.

[bossaroel]

Originally Posted by LX3

[that's frustrating, I just wrote a long detailed reply, and it seems to have got lost somewhere]

I've seen quite a few SD8s on the road this year. The Digicos are definitely convenient to record from, but I have a few issues that are stopping me from jumping on the SD8 as a dedicated recording system:

* Channel count - it comes as standard with a 48-input rack. I think you may have to choose a different rack to get 56 inputs. But for me, 56 inputs wouldn't be quite enough. I haven't worked out whether it's possible to connect a second rack and still echo the extra inputs over a fourth MADI connection on the desk for recording. Possibly not. It's a shame Digico don't support the 64-channel MADI standard, as I find 64 a bit of a sweet-spot. If they did, I could live with 56-channels and insert another 8 from somewhere else...

(Anyone know of a hardware device that accepts 56-channel MADI and spits it out again as 64-channel? - obviously with no audio on the last eight).

Plus, even if it was possible to record using a second stage rack, you've got to factor in the cost of the extra rack.

* No high sample rates - like a lot of live boards, it only operates at 44.1 or 48k. I've been asked for 72 tracks of 96kHz before. Although you have a game on your hands if you want to do 72 tracks of 96kHz on any MADI-based system. Funny, there are times when an "old-school" analog system is actually easier to work with.

I think you would definitely need a conventional mic splitter if you want stage crews to like you.

But I think the SD8 is a really nice live board. If I were running a medium-size PA company it would probably be my first choice.

Actually I bought the SD8 for mixing inears for a band I'm working for and then figured out it's also very convenient for recording.

For classical and jazz recording I use my 24 channels of Millennia Media preamps and SSL Alpha Madi converters (which go up to 96kHz) which is a definite step up from the SD8 system.

I have never tried recording beyond 48 tracks from the SD8. I know it is possible to connect a second stagerack but I am not sure how to get it onto one MADI line into Protools...I'll have to figure that out.

[audioshark]

Thanks roel for all the input!

As for the SD8 as a recording system,

I have now been using a a DM2000 for some years having a total of 40 mic inputs. Only a few times I have been in need for my old mackie 24 inputs for sub mixing, so 56 channels is all I need I dont find the dm2000 sounding as good as I had hoped, especially since I have a TC finalizer as a stereo compressor making the sound become even more cold and hard. Therefor It would be nice to hear an recording done on a SD8.


LX3, I have read that harrison, the old console company had some sort of 64channel protocol , I might be wrong tho but it might be worth checking!

As for getting a bigger rack/anotherone you can get a Digirack (unloaded)
for about 5k euros (includes all cables, psu:s etc etc) and add extra inputs cards a 8ch mic & line input or line output cards for about 1k euros each. Or buy another madirack 48/8-24 without the possibility to mod your rack due to the lack of input slots.

I am also abit sceptic about the SD8, not so much about the samplerate itself, just that Im a bit sceptic if it will sound good. However I havent found a cheaper system that have a surface and plugins to do a mixdown having 48 micpres as standard going via madi. The system seems very neat and I would be able to do the recording entirely on my own with no outside help, which is good.

"I have never tried recording beyond 48 tracks from the SD8. I know it is possible to connect a second stagerack but I am not sure how to get it onto one MADI line into Protools...I'll have to figure that out."

- talked to a guy the other day and if I recall correctly you simply connect one rack with another and it will show up as local inputs in the console.

BTW I read today that the Vista 5 had the option setting up thier D21m stagebox as a split, anyone have any prices for a similar setup using a vista ?

also how much is a digidesign venue system ?

[LX3]

The Vista 5 addresses all my issues with the Digico. It can easily handle a couple of hundred inputs, has optical MADI, configurable and expandable I/O rack, switchable 56/64 channel protocol, 96kHz.... But its in a whole other price bracket. You could buy five SD8s for the price of a Vista 5 system.

[audioshark]

Thanks for all input! Taking up an old thread again.

Im about to buy a splitter system and I have a question you guys might be able to answer.

Would I need a transformer based splitting system having a digital chain with the SD8 stage rack on stage ?

my goal would be to have a passive splitter system (not so heavy as the active ones)when the stage crew doesnt supply a useful Splitter. However I started thinking that I woudnt be able to get a ground loop problem using the SD8 rack on stage...anyone have any good input regarding if Im in need of a transformer based splitter or if I can go with a cheaper parrallell ground lift system when using a digital system like this?

[Oliver Zülch]

Originally Posted by bossaroel

I have used a similar setup very succesfully since the beginning of this year. I have recorded several "high profile" DVD and CD releases that way and I am very satisfied with the overall quality.

I use a Digico SD8 with the standard 48in-24out stagerack and coaxial MADI cables to go to my "controlroom" in the venue (normally an empty dressingroom). From the MADI B connections on the SD8 I go to my Protools HD2 rig and also to a RME Madiface/Logic setup for backup.
Everything is clocked by a Big Ben.

The MADI signal I am recording is mirrored (pre EQ/fader) from the MADI input from the stage so I can make a separate broadcastmix and use all the EQ's and FX's without affecting the multitrack recording. It's a very cost effective, high quality and simple setup.

I don't think it's a good idea to feed the PA from the stagerack outputs because your gain settings will affect the feed to the PA. There is no way to route the preamps directly to the stagerack outputs, you would have to use channel direct out's...So best use a splitter system.

Here are some pictures of the setup in action:
APEX Belux - Company - Novastar chooses a Digico SD8 for the audio capturing of the new DVD


Hope this helps.

Roel

hi did the logic setup work fine to u?
did u clock the logic laptop solution anyhow?
regards
oliver